Lessons Learnt 2.0 with Tim Overton and Quentin Scrimshire (Modo Energy)

Building assets, they're financing them, they're operating them, developing them, they're optimizing them. It's it's it's those folks who are really making the energy transition tab. And our job Moto is to just help them be successful at doing that. They are Frodo and we are samwise, I guess.

Right? This is their story. If we're gonna do the energy transition, then we need a hundred times more people moving out of non energy jobs into energy jobs. That is why we do loads of educational content, try and bring more people into those kind of roles?

I think even as a graduate coming into this, people can be super impactful if they've got the right tooling. I think we're probably shied away from saying honestly over the last few years. This is the goal. This is how we're gonna add value.

This is how we believe Motor be ten x more beneficial to customers. Kind of like understanding their existing situation and their existing flows, and you can't do that without having a picture of what you're competing against.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to transmission, the new name for the Moto Energy podcast.

Everything about Moto has changed this week. If you haven't seen a press release or a new platform, please go and have a look at it. We used to be known for the last five years as those cartoons on the internet. And now we have an entirely new brand, new platform, new products, and so much going on.

So this is transmission. You can expect the same sort of interviews and content that you used to get from the Motor Energy podcast, but we've got a new name and we're expanding our reach beyond just great Britain to the US and Australia. So lots more exciting stuff to happen there. And to kick things off, this week is a special episode.

Is a conversation between me and Tim Overton. If you don't know Tim, he's my co founder and one of the smartest guys I've ever met in the world. And we're gonna talk about building Moto Energy, how we got here, where we're going, and some of the mistakes we've made along the way. I really hope you like this.

It's a it's it's unusual to talk about Moto for a whole episode, but I think it's worth it. And let us know what you think in the comments. See you next week on transmission.

Hello, Tim. Hello. Welcome on the podcast. It's been a while. Yeah. It's been a while.

Yeah. Yeah. So I do something a bit special this week, aren't we? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm here.

So I don't leave it special this week, which is rather than interviewing a guest from the outside world, we're having a conversation a bit like we usually do all the time, but with microphones, and we're gonna talk about the company and where we're headed. And the reason why we're doing this is there's two things happening when firstly, we're getting loads of questions from the community about what we're building. And we've been working on some stuff in the background for the last twelve months, which is pretty exciting.

And then this week is the big Motor interview two point o launch week. So after seventy episodes of the Modo Energy podcast, this is one all about Modo. Oh, and one other thing is that we're gonna do this this started life as a conversation that we were gonna record for new hires during the company because we're hiring a lot of people right now as we expand. And we decided why not make it available to everybody.

So if you're interested, this is what Moto is all all about, and this is the company that we're building. Yep. That's right. So before we get started, Tim, for those who don't know you, who are you, Tim.

So I'm q's co founder, and I originally was a mechanical engineer, so I started off doing something very different to what I do now, but spent most of my career in the power sector mainly building things or supporting things being built. I don't think I ever got my hands particularly dirty myself, but then started model with Q and now spend most of our time thinking about product design, product strategy, making sure the companies aligned around what we're building. Was incredibly mysterious. What did he used to build, Tim?

So I used the work mainly on energy from waste, So administering engineering, human construction contracts from energy from waste, but then also supported a few combined cycle gas turbines. But mainly, big thermal things. Burning stuff and then spinning something. So the format of this episode is in two halves.

The first half is we're gonna do something a bit weird. You're gonna ask me questions about the company as if don't know, of course, you do know. And hopefully, yeah. And we're gonna share that with the community.

And then the second half is something a little bit different. We are each gonna talk through some lessons that we learned building this company? We've been doing modo for almost five years now, which just feels absolutely mad. And we have made more mistakes than successes I think along the way.

In a good way, in a good way, and we're gonna share some of those for the listeners. So should we do the first half? You have to put your in interviewer hat on and pretend that you don't know anything about the company. Cool.

So, yeah, why don't we start from the top? What's Modo Energy's mission? What are we here for? The mission has changed a little bit over the last five years of the company, but certainly for the last three and a half to four years, we've been on a mission to do one thing.

And that is what we call build the information architecture for the energy transition.

And the best way to describe that is to tell a bit of a story. So if you forgive The next thirty to sixty seconds, I'm gonna tell a story, which explains it all. So in the last fifty years since the nineteen seventies, the world has done something, which is widely called the financialization of everything. So the world's created a hundred trillion dollars of new assets, printed lots of money, the bond market has exploded in size. There's a lot of derivatives on top of it. And pretty much everything has been financialized.

And that happened in the financial markets it happened around the same time as digitization and the stock market being much more prominent.

And on top of all this, they have some awesome businesses set up support that ecosystem. So you probably know the ratings agencies, S and P or Moody's, for example, do ratings, and in the, indices There are research companies like Morningstar, for example, that do research about the market, and then there are data providers and data specialists like Bloomberg and Reuters who really transformed the industry through data and information. It's that happened in the world of finance in the last fifty years. Our belief is the same thing is happening right now in energy, but rather than, so the world's creating another hundred trillion dollars of new assets, But this time, rather than these assets being financialization of existing things, we're creating new physical assets, so big bits of steel wind turbines.

Solar PV, big battery energy storage systems, a completely new way of generating, distributing and consuming power. Alongside electrification of everything. So we're creating a hundred trillion dollars of new assets. And on top of these new assets, there will be an ecosystem businesses that do the same kind of thing that happens in the financial markets I just talked about.

So the research data, indices, benchmarking, or all of the all of that good stuff. And That market's very immature right now. There's some legacy businesses that consultancies that serve that market, but really it's all to play for, and there's a lot of value to add through data and information in that bit of the the world. And so at mono energy, that's what we're going after.

We're gonna do all of those things all at once and all in one place. So we've got a lot of our plates, and we're going after a lot of things at once, but we're really excited about it. Sounds very cool. This is maybe a question that I think a few people will be interested in, including me, not to pick up my own question.

Why do we think that this is happening in the industry now? What what's happening that's made this change happen? So there's a load of things that are happening at once right now. So The the biggest thing is technology, we have lots of new new asset classes and generation types through renewables and energy storage because the cost curves are coming down.

So the price to install those things up. It is coming down. So we're moving from old fashioned power generation to new renewables and storage. Everybody knows that.

There's some more subtle changes that happen to the market, which are transformational.

The first one is everything is going to real time. What do I mean by that? Historically, power is trading on long term contracts. So everything a lot of the power market until now has been trading a long term contract.

So you might buy a season ahead or a month ahead, something like that. And then over time, the liquidity and amount of power that's traded in the markets and and structures and and service services and also the stuff that's happening is moving from month week to day ahead to our, you know, hour ahead settlement period and set on periods in our thirty minutes, and in some countries like Australia, they're now five minutes. The direction of motion is that markets are moving towards real time. So rather than longer term contracts moving to real time.

And that means there's a lot more stuff to be traded, and there's a lot more liquidity in the market, and there's a lot more data. The second thing that's happening is there's a load of there's a load of ways to answer this question, but how are markets for much of history of power being a thing have been government controlled and centralized.

And so nationalized electricity markets, for example. In the last twenty or thirty years, Lots of countries around the world have moved towards liberalized markets, so power is traded by private entities.

And that liberalization has really caught on to a point where more and more parts of the sector are being privatized, and more and more different types of capital are coming into the sector to own assets or operate assets and do all that stuff. And that creates a big opportunity for new market structures and and and new things to happen. But there's a couple of examples of changes that are happening alongside mass participation in markets and digitization, all your stuff that are really starting to add up and move the needle on what electricity markets look like and the role of data and information in those markets.

But that's a hell of a big question you just asked me, and I probably didn't give you the best answer, but there's a couple of exam. No. That was cool. Yeah.

All makes sense to me. And so what's Moto's strategy in this emerging kind of industry? Let me start with the problem that we're trying to solve. The world is building loads of renewables and battery empty storage.

We know that. And if you're in a company that is deploying these assets or operating these assets or your bank that's lending against them, Right now, if you wanna figure out how much money they're making or benchmark them or forecast them into the future or see real time prices, essentially you have one option. You go to a consultancy and you have to go through the whole consultancy model, which is a a legacy business model. And get information from a consultancy and PDFs and Excel sheets and all that stuff.

And it the consultancy has all the power. Right? So you either do that or you go to a data provider, and there's like some existing data providers, and get a small subset of data either via email or as an API. Has to get to lots of these different point solution providers and figure out for yourself what's going on under the markets from all these different data sources.

A belief is that if you bring all that into one place and to do with technology rather than a consultancy model, then customers and users will have all the power again can get on with their job and do things much, much quicker and better and have, a better insight in the world. So that's that's the thing we're trying to do. We're trying to bring everything all in one place. And then our strategy, there's a there's a couple of points here, but the the first point to make is that one of our principles as a company is that the customer is the hero.

What does that mean? Well, it's our customers that are really doing all the stuff. Right? They're building assets.

They're financing them. They're operating them, developing them. They're optimizing them. Those folks are really making the energy transition happen.

And our job at Moto is to just help them be successful at doing that.

So as an example, to use a lord of the rings example, they are Frodo, and we are Samwise. Right? This is their story. Right?

The the the the the the the the the the heroes of this thing. And so the question is how do we do that the best possible way? And so our strategy is all around doing that. And there's a couple of things.

Firstly, we're a product first company. So what that means is that we product as a as as a function is as important as any other part of our business. We have lots of product managers doing product stuff. Speaking to customers and all that.

The second thing is that we really believe in media and video as a form of communicating and getting the word out there. And there's a lot of work to be done in in in helping support folks understand the market, and we believe we can do that. So two things I think are really important to us that the product is in everything we do and that we invest big in in media because that helps grease the wheels of the whole energy transition. Very cool.

So that's how the podcast fits in up. That's why. It's my thing.

Yeah. If you think about it, the amount of money that we spend, media that is essentially free media is, well, has been questioned at our board meetings, right? But but we really believe in it. In fact, we It's bigger than just like a marketing campaign.

As a team, we're pretty obsessive about education in energy markets and not being free. And if we're gonna do the energy transition, then we need hundred times more people moving out of non energy jobs into energy jobs. And so we need to remove barriers to entry to that, and that's why we do the energy academy and and all that stuff. Yeah.

And why a load of our product is free as well. Right? So if we're getting it for free, social someone else. Exactly.

Oh, well, Tim, what do you think are strategies?

No. It's not not meant to be that way, right?

It's it's a big scary word, isn't it? It is. It is a big word. The but yeah.

I think where the aim is to be customer focused. The aim is to solve a load of pain points for, particularly analysts in the energy transition. We think that's where there's a, like, a key blockage at the moment. I think getting stuff done is enabling analysts to run faster, make more confident decisions.

And so the strategy kind of revolves around that. So that's why we're multi product That's why we do loads of educational content to try and bring more people into those kind of roles.

And they are, like, I think even as a graduate coming into this. People can be super impactful if they've got the right tooling. So, yeah, I agree with everything you said, fortunately. So right now, we have a product that enables people in Great Britain to understand how assets have been commercialized. Is that where we stop what's happening outside of Greatburn, further afield? I can hear the sound of Birmingham in the background.

Yeah. Of course, I'm in the US right now. I'm talking to you from Texas from from Austin, Texas. We have an office in Austin, Texas.

Our strategy is to do a small number of things, but really well. And do them in a range of geographies. So we do just battery energy storage, and we do that thing to massive depth And we do that in Great Britain. We do that in US.

Our three markets are Texas, Court, ISO, and West Coast, and then PGM on the East Coast. And then Australia next year. Amazing.

Right. So I think it's given people a flavor for where Moto heading and why Moto is Should you do some lessons learnt? Yeah. Let's get some good stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So, yeah, it's been five years.

And Moto Energy has changed a lot. It does sound at the start of a Schneider Conerson when you say it like that, but yeah.

So Sorry. So now we've arrived at second half of the podcast, and this bit is all about lessons learned. So we've been doing this for five years. We've made a ton of mistakes.

We have been through one hell of a roller coaster of ups and downs. I think we're I think we're on an up at the moment, which is good. And what we're gonna do is have a chat and share some of our lessons learned along the way. So I've done a lot of talking so far.

So I'm gonna ask you first. Then what is your first lesson learned? So I think my first lesson learned Oh, man. I'm gonna contradict myself in one sentence.

So I think it is that Automation is really difficult and where possible you should delay automation, but you should really not delay it for too long.

And you should automate as much as you can as early as you can. Yeah. But, yeah, I think automation is just super difficult, and I think It's really important that everyone touching, like, data processing really understands what you're doing and what you're aiming to get it done. We ant the kind of full context behind this, the leader board model energies. For a long time, been what we've been best known for probably.

And for a long time, it was what we'd probably call semi automated So we would run scripts and there would be run once a month and then our research team, our analyst sit down, look at the data that came out of that script, and decide whether or not to publish and make changes and ensure consistency across everything we were publishing. Great system, you might think. It was a great system. And so but we felt like monthly could really be improved on.

And because people that need to be having these conversations in more closer to real time, we decided we were gonna fully automate the leader board and have an index benchmarking solution that was gonna be spitting out numbers every half an hour. And as I just a comment on that, we So, yep, just check your time check, like, four and a half years, almost five years of modal. Yeah. The leaderboard's been going for probably three years, something like that.

And we decided to automate it, when did we decide to automate it? I think it could have been more than a year ago. I think we started trying to do this. Yeah.

I think it was, yeah, probably June last year. So June twenty twenty two, We decided, it's probably about time we ought to make this thing. And everyone felt like they understood what was happening.

We've had a team who all been working on stuff around the leaderboard for a long time.

And so we started automating it. And I think Let's just say we've only really had it running as stable as we needed it for maybe two months now. So it's taken, yeah, over a year for us to get from having something that was semi automated and that run ran once a month but just needed a bit of QA, manual QA on top. QA being. QA being a team sitting down and looking at the numbers for the month.

And deciding how comfortable, how confident we were with those numbers, and whether we needed to do any post processing. On QA. QA is quality assurance. Right?

Oh, sorry. Yes. Quality assurance. Yeah. So people checking the document. Explain the acronym without actually saying that.

Oh, man. But so you can tell you can tell which one of us is the public facing.

The and, yeah, so it's taken us, like, over a year. And we weren't even starting at zero. We were starting at a point where everyone felt like they understood what was happening here.

But I would preface that with the the issue. Okay. It's so the leader board is complicated. Because of the way we do it and the way that we do it that it's transparent.

Exactly. And we have to have an audit trail for it. And because we're trusted by banks and institutions, it has to make sense. That's one complication, but really the the main complication is it spits out data at lots of different points that is used elsewhere in the platform, isn't it?

So automate it wasn't like just automate the leaderboard automate the leaderboard, and also at each stage in the calculations spit out, do error checking, and then put out there to other parts of the platform and asset explorer, That was exactly huge. Yeah. Yeah. And so in many ways, it's been the foundation of, product for a long time.

We now expand your way from that. But, yeah, the things that it touched and the kind of reliance on every half an hour being Getting confidence around every half an hour that comes out has been a challenge. But we're really proud of where we're at with it now. But, yeah, I think expecting it expecting automation to be straightforward and having confidence in automation.

It's just taking us a lot longer than expected. But now we're doing it. We're baking I guess the lesson learned is that we're now running maybe slightly differently from a conventional MVP So I guess the conventional minimal viable product would be that you don't automate at all, which is how we started the leader board, We go fully manual and we work out a solution that's gonna work best and you iterate on top of that. So you work out.

The kind of automated bit isn't really customers, users of the leader will don't really care whether it's automated, they care whether it's right, and that it shows them what they will need to see at a time they need to see it. And I think what we've learned is that maybe there are some cases, and I think where your vision is for an automated product where a true MVP can be really dangerous. And I don't think that means you shouldn't do it. I think you just need to recognize it.

So, yeah, I I think that's been one of the things that as a business struggled with, and I think, where a lot of our processes have evolved over the last twelve months. So can you do another one? I think I can do another one. The so I think the next one for me would be the I think I'm just constantly surprised how powerful user experiences And I don't mean to say that this is definitely me not saying that we get user experience right all the time.

I think if anything, the lesson comes from where we haven't always got it right, I think we're quite fortunate that our kind of the companies that we take for inspiration, the likes of, you know, Apple, There's a huge focus on visual design and also user experience, like, product design as a whole. And I think there's been real areas where we've miss the mark where we haven't focused on customers enough and where our user experience that we've produced hasn't been strong enough. So I think, like, our user sign up not having password when we went passwordless. We thought it was amazing on paper.

There was potential for it to be fantastic. And I think for some people, it was amazing. But really to this, is is this the apology? For that.

This is this is the apology. Yeah. I'm so sorry. The and we didn't act on that fast enough.

And I think it's because it was it was a user experience thing that was not a core user experience for our product. It wasn't how we were delivering data. I think there's a we spend a huge amount of time focusing on how we're gonna convey and get data visualized or digitally into people's hands as in the best way possible. But I think there were user experiences that were really fundamental to the product that because they weren't part of this core of, like, user experience of how they access the leader board and how they see and get insights.

It was tucked away over here, but actually was really important.

And I think the feeling that you get is almost as valid as anything else around the product. And I think that is something where we've missed the mark, and I think where we're really stressing and trying. Going forward to mimic more of our inspiring. Like our inspirations.

So looking more, yeah, what Apple are doing, what the leading companies in product, and user experience designer doing around the world. And I think it links to my third lesson, man, which is, I think, like, everyone says it, but talking, to customers, especially face to face, it just unlocks so much power. And I think The failings that we had around user experience and product design have all been points where we haven't spoken to users and the industry our customers enough. And whenever we have conversations with the people around us, whether those are kind of people wanting to use the product, using the product or in our one of our communities, the insight that we get in terms of informing our roadmap or just like, helping us shape the future vision of the business, I think, is crazy.

And I think there's times where we've not spoken to customers and users enough. And again, that's something that we're trying to revive is making sure particularly our product team are meeting with people face to face and that Yeah. Like both me and you, the power of me and you meeting with our customers and our users face to face, I think, has been way bigger than I affected. And I think it's amazing that we get to talk to our customers in the way we do.

It's really powerful.

How about you? What's yours?

So mine find a less quality. So the the the first one is that company culture really matters. And this has been tricky as we scale, and we're now in two different countries, and we've got offices. We had a Birmingham office.

We've moved that to London. We've got a big London office now. We've got the Austin office. I think the reason why culture really matters is if you invest in culture and you have a culture where the team really trust each other and this especially trusts leadership to do to always put the company first and use their judgment in a fair honest and rather transparent way.

I think that means that for the ninety nine percent of the time where everything is going fine, you don't really have a problem. But for the one percent of the time where you have to make really tough decisions that are gonna upset some people or change their lifestyle or mean they have to put an all nighter or everything, everything in between.

If you really invest in culture in the first place and for that one percent of those difficult decisions, you also have people on-site. Even if personally, it is not necessarily the best outcome for them. They trust you. It's the best outcome for the company.

I think I guess it's a reflection of the fact that we need We're only as strong as, like, our weakest link. I was so cliche, but, like, I think, yeah, if the culture is weak at the point and the point when everything gets stressed, things fall apart, don't they? Yep. Things fall apart anyway, but I think at least when they fall apart and you know that everyone is running the same thing, then you will fall apart in the same direction and everyone helps each other kind of get through it.

But yeah. And the other thing is we I think we have a culture of going very quickly. So moving fast, doing things very quickly. In order to go fast in the business, you have to be comfortable making lots of decisions really quickly, and those decisions with only with not all the information.

So In fact, we want teams and managers to make decisions with fifty to sixty percent of the information. That means there's a big gap there in all of those decisions.

And that means there's gonna be lots and lots of mistakes. And so we have to have a culture where it's okay to make mistakes as long as you course correct afterwards really quickly. And I guess that's something we've invested a lot of time and effort into, and we're not perfect at. We need to keep on investing in.

And it's quite hard to do. Right? If you have a culture of people constantly making mistakes, I can look really bad. The mistakes I do in first, in both of hours because on net, you actually much more advanced than you go much faster by making those mistakes, if you like.

Yeah. I completely agree. I completely agree. What's next? What's the next one? So my second one is I is a new one, I think.

It said this is this year learning. Which is you need to decide as a business who you're gonna compete against.

Oh. Please.

It is juicy, right? Because in the first few years of Vodo, we were small, we were compared to the incumbents, which are incumbent data providers, or incumbent trading script providers, or incumbent consultancies. There's a few consultancies that are famous for forecast, for example, mentioning their names. And we were just an annoying little thorn in their side.

I think, moto is this little thing. They're gonna go away. And then we've got to the stage now where I think the whole industry can see we're moving really quickly. I think we've got ourselves in gear.

And the vision for the business essentially means we're gonna compete with all of those guys. And I think we're probably shied away from saying honestly over the last few years. This is the goal This is how we're gonna add value. This is how we believe Moto could be ten x more beneficial to customers, and then you're gonna love this product.

And I'm afraid that means that we are gonna compete against you and you. And you can't apologize about it. That's business. And I think we've we've we've been honest about that earlier on.

I think we could have been more focused. But now I think we are very clear on it, and I think the company is much better for it.

Yeah. Could you talk a bit more about on the benefit of deciding who you're gonna compete against? You mentioned focus What do you mean? What's the kind of tangible output?

Okay. You're you're right to call me out on that. So the tangible output is I think the answer is a product answer. So if you're building software and technology to solve and simplify problems for customers, then you look at their day to day and the things that they do, and figure out where the pain points are and you build software to solve that.

Now, unless you're really honest with yourself about, partially, we are competing with consultancies here, competing with data providers here. We're competing with trading screens providers here and research organizations here. Unless you do that, There's big gaps in customers day to day workflows that you're saying, no, we're not gonna build that. We're not gonna build that.

And now we've been honest that we're building the all in one. Platform for asset owners, optimizers, traders, and banks. We can look at their whole day to day and all of the data they use in all of research all of the services and say, okay, how do we actually make that ten times better? And we could only do that since being honest with ourselves about the fact that, yes, we compete with lots and lots of companies.

Yeah. So it's about understanding their existing situation and their existing flows, and you can't do that without having a picture of what you've competing against. That's the kind of idea. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Love it. And we can't make customers' lives ten times better, unless we really look end to end to all the things that they're using, all the things they're doing in day to day.

And that's really the goal. It's not to be a bit better. It's to be ten times better. Yeah.

Yeah. For sure. Makes sense. Cool. What's your third one? The third one is something that I never ever expected.

And this is I remember. I remember It's about merch, isn't it? I think it's about having great merch.

There's a thing that you often hear older people say who have run businesses and retired, and they often say You know what? I've read I I built this business. I run this business, and I got to stage where just the people problems just exhausted me. I felt like I was being a bad guy all the time.

And I just couldn't do it. You know what? The market was great. The product was great.

I loved it, but then just the people stuff really got me down.

And I've now that's actually starting to resonate with me, not that it's getting me down, but resonate with me that the complexities of having so many people in one organization, and adding people very quickly, and all the things that does to an organization, really needs to manage to be managed very carefully. And so me and you spend a lot of our time. I I think we do a good job, I hope. Would always do better of thinking about putting systems in plat systems in place so that everybody's on the same page and so that work that the organization can adjust properly.

But I can see how that could what and with every step of the business getting bigger, that sometimes means making unpopular decisions, that people don't like, but that is right for the business. And our job is to do what we think is right for the business. And so I guess the lesson here is that People and hiring and organizations are really hard. They're way harder than I thought.

And all of the trade offs when you're, in an organization, but you're not responsible for the big decisions. I, found a CEO, that kind of thing. When you're in an organization, you look up and you go, oh, that's a terrible decision. Never built a business like this.

I'd never do it that way. And then when you get there, you realize actually there's so many trade offs to do constantly that you can't get it perfect. So example of that is an org chart. People have where people sit in different teams.

It's really important to people. Right? Cause who they're gonna be working with, who they report to, lines of command. I don't use the word command.

So lines of reporting, and job titles really matter to people. I didn't I've really underestimated how much they do. And it's if job title matters to you, that's not because you're an egotist, but because it's because you're a human.

And when your organizational chart is changing every two or three months because you're adding people left right and center, that means not everybody promoted all the time or not if one gets the shiny new title or the big global responsibility, and that's really tricky to manage. In our job. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Another? Any more lessons for us? So a really important one for me is, and this is gonna sound like a slogan, is the power of teams, not Microsoft teams, would everybody use Microsoft Teams. That's a great product.

Some people.

We have been over I think we have been really super I'm speaking for you, Tim, here as well. Yeah. Exactly. I think we have been really blown away and surprised by the amazing things that a team can do if you let them get on with it.

So if they have the context, they know where the business is heading, we've gone from the stage of we know everything that's going on with the business. There's kind of ten, fifteen people to, now there's a lot more than that, and we can't know everything that's going on with the business. And we trust the teams to just do it. And actually, it feels like the more we step back, the more they step into bigger shoes and think creatively and do.

Incredible things. And that's something that I never imagined. If you had spoken to me two or three years ago, we were still very much in small startup mode, and I would have thought that to scale that just meant more of me and you being involved in everything and building everything.

And actually, it's the opposite I think things are better, the more we have less to do with it.

In most cases, which is awesome because actually Yeah. The the the the counter factual to that is and not the counter. The the other side to that is you see people join the organization as one thing, and then in a matter of months or years, they turn and they grow and turns this big operator with all these bigger ideas that can deliver and execute, and that is incredible to watch. That is incredibly rewarding.

Maybe may even be the bet. That could be the best bit. Yeah. And, you can't get where you need to get, but I think without having that We need to be, yeah, empowering.

All job is to empower. Oh, yeah. So could probably go on forever, but I think we need to wrap it. Let's wrap it.

What's going to make it? Awful joke about wrapping. So you're done three and item three. I think we'll leave it there.

So if you're listening to this, a bit of a different episode, very modo focused. I think we're allowed to do one of those every seventy episodes or so. And we will see you next week for more exciting interviews with industry leaders. If you like this, hit like, subscribe, and all the good buttons, and we'll see you next week.

Thanks for having me on.