Carbon capture, utilization and storage with Olivia Powis (UK Director @ CCS Association)

We have to do everything in the toolbox to get to net zero, and CCUS will also form a component of that. So we have to do all the reduction that we need to do. We have to have all the renewables on the system that we can. And even with all this, we will still need CCUS. In in the UK, in terms of how it's being rolled out, it's around industrial clusters. So it's really targeting the industrial decarbonization that we'll need. So for industries like, cement, chemicals, refining, etcetera, we're still going to need those products.

And until we have viable alternatives, carbonization.

Hi, everybody. Welcome back for another installment of transmission.

Today's guest is Olivia Powis, UK director at the CCS Association. The conversation covers how carbon capture utilization and storage is vital in decarbonizing hard to abate sectors, how the technology works, and what we need to do to scale up this operation.

If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. With that, let's jump in.

Hello, Olivia. Welcome to the podcast. Hi.

And thank you for having me here today.

It's a pleasure. So let's get straight into it. What is carbon capture and storage?

Carbon capture and storage is a whole set of, of industries that that work together as part of a value chain, but it's a process essentially by which carbon dioxide, is captured from waste products, from power generation, and or industrial processes, or even directly from the atmosphere. So greenhouse gas removal technologies. And then it's either used or it's put into a permanent geological storage in perpetuity.

And it's a crucial role in a transition to getting to net zero and and building the low carbon economy.

Actually, let's get the acronyms right first. Is it CCS? Is it CCUS? Define this for our listeners.

Which all of the above. So, I am UK director at the CCSA, which is the Carbon Capture and Storage, Association.

That's, a trade association. It's it's Europe's leading, trade association, to promote the commercial deployment of, carbon capture utilization and storage. We talk about CCUS, so that's carbon capture utilization and storage.

Other others in the industry talk about CCS, which is carbon capture and storage. So it's just missing out the utilization part. So both are correct.

They're all forms of capturing the carbon and then either using it ideally in perpetuity. So there's a question about how long you use it if you use it in in utilizations or how long it's taken out of, the atmosphere for and then storage is is long term geological storage. And as what we do as a trade association, we've got over a hundred and twenty members, from the UK and Europe and some global members as well to, with the ambition of deploying, CCUS at a commercial scale so that we can meet, net zero goals both in the UK and, in Europe and worldwide.

And we have to explain and we'll talk about this. I'm sure more, but to to explain the industry and how it works, we've got members right across the value chain. So we've got, we have members who are working in the different applications of carbon capture. So working in the transportation of c o two, so looking road and rail. We're looking at we have members who are developing storage. So developing CO2 storage. These are typically oil and gas, traditional oil and So developing c o two storage, these are typically oil and gas, traditional oil and gas members because they understand the subsurface.

We have members who are looking at developing the technology to capture the carbon and that's a continually sort of evolving space. And then we have members who are looking to deploy the technology. So, gas power members, cement plants, refineries, all these industries that are gonna need carbon capture if they're to meet net zero. And then increasingly, members of the supply chain who are gonna supply it and also, the service industry, so financial insurance, etcetera.

So it's a very broad space, and it's not you know, it's an industry that in order to work, you've got to have all these parts of the value chain working together.

And it's not a new idea. Right? CCS or CCUS, has been going around for a few decades. What what what's the background there before we get stuck into the the thesis?

Yeah. It's not it's not new at all. We there are projects that have been operating for over twenty five years, and Norway's got, projects that have been successfully storing c o two for for, you know, over twenty to twenty five years. It's also used in the states, and and it's a proven technology there.

I think the new point is that it to be deployed at scale to and and, the scales at which we're looking globally to store that c o two in perpetuity. This is the that this is the bit that's that's changing. But in terms of an actual technology, no. It's it's not it's not new at all, and it's proven.

There are projects around, the world that have been operating. And, obviously, with new new projects and projects at scale, there are always, some issues about how how they'll move forward. But, ultimately, it's, it isn't yeah. It's not a new technology at all.

And so if we can get the thesis right, and I wanna make this really, really basic. So if I understand it correctly, what the CCUS folks are saying is we're gonna carry on burning stuff into the future. Right? We have to for certain industries.

And there's a range of the the level of fossil fuel use that we need depending on how much electrification you think that's gonna be. And what the CCUS folks are saying is, well, we can we can take that carbon that's produced in that process and store it or use it somewhere elsewhere. But the the key driver of this is there are some industries or some processes that will always create carbon, and we can discuss the the extent of that. But because I think some of the controversies around CCUS is that it could encourage more, you know, thermal power generation, for example, which there's a, you know, there's a there's a strong case we made that we can move completely away from thermal in the future.

But if we're gonna store the carbon that comes out of it, the incentive to, you know, to turn those kind of generating units into renewables disappears.

But the thesis here is that there is some some amount of carbon that will always be produced in the future. And it's a good thing if we can get it somewhere else and store it and either put it in the ground or utilize it for something else. Is is that the key premise here before we move further?

Yeah. And I think it's worth sort of emphasizing at this point that it's in all credible scenarios that are put forward towards reaching net zero, carbon capture utilization storage forms some part of that. So in the in the UK, the climate change committee does, the modeling and in terms of how we're gonna meet our carbon budgets. And CCUS is always part of all those scenarios. So it's, and the same with the IPCC and IEA. It is not and it's not seen as this is an either or and this is something else that, you know, that we continue just using fossil fuels in perpetuity.

We have to do everything in the toolbox to get to net zero and CCUS will also form a component in that. So we have to do all the reduction that we need to do. We have to have all the renewables on the system that we can. And even with all this, we will still need CCUS.

So I mean, really in in the UK in terms of how it's, being rolled out, it's around industrial clusters. So it's really targeting the industrial decarbonization that we'll need. So for industries like, cement, chemicals, refining, etcetera, we're still going to need those products. And until we have viable alternatives, carbon capture is the is the route for and and the only route for some of those in terms of decarbonization.

You also talked about power. So, carbon capture with, with gas CCGTs thermal power.

Again, I'll not talk about it in the UK, example, but the the proposal in the UK is that this would only be so abated gas would only to be dispatched after renewables. So you use all the renewables on the system that you can and once you know, when there isn't sufficient renewables there to to power the grid, then you would go to, abated gas. When there isn't enough of that, then then you would go down to unabated. So it's that's how it's been designed in the system.

And in fact, with, with power, CCUS with power will enable more renewables on the system because it provides that flexible backup. So it's not instead of renewables. It's not instead of battery storage. It's not instead of any of these.

It's it's alongside, and I think that's the the important bit to to flag is that, you know, we're not going to get net to net zero. Just by looking at one of these technologies. We've got to deploy all of them.

How how does that work? I've never heard that before. So CCUS will help help us get more renewables.

What what's the logic there?

In terms of, I mean, talk about the the UK grid. So it we've I mean, we've made huge strides in terms of getting more renewables onto the grid. But by having, flexible power generation as a backup there, essentially, that that generation will be there. So you can maximize the number of renewables on the grid if you've got, a backup knowing that you can then call on this flexible power generation to fill the gaps essentially when there aren't sufficient renewables on the system.

So it's not going to be It's not like a a bit like what what batteries do, but I guess the argument is that CCUS could act is could could fill the role of providing flexible backup like batteries do if we can't build as many batteries as we need to.

Yeah. It's it's another it's another form of providing, resilience on the system. And, and there are studies that show that overall provide cost savings. I think it's around two hundred and eighty pounds per household per year on the system, of of being able to do this. So by maximizing the number of renewables, then we can also, you know, overall, we can achieve a saving to the overall system for for consumers.

So can we talk about what these things actually look like? So what does, say, we've got a we talked about CCTs there. So the most efficient gas plant on the grid is combined cycle gas turbine plants. So you've got a gas turbine and you've got a steam cycle, and you're really let's say fifty percent efficient therm efficiency.

And what you can do with that is you can put all the carbon that produces on the out the exhaust. You can then do CCUS with it. So what's the CCUS bit look like? What does the actual plant look like?

You know, is this, like, ten football fields, like a a pocket watch size. Those are really bad examples. But, you know, what are these things? How much do they cost?

Because just just on what you're saying there, I mean, you know, the abated gas plants will run after renewables totally makes sense because, you know, capturing carbon from gas plants is is gonna be really expensive. So it makes sense that renewables renewables will be dispatched and run a lot more. But, yeah, what do these things actually look like?

They're they're fitted on. So the capture plant will be will be fitted onto the power station. It's it's a big it's a big construction. You need land.

You need you need a site for it. It's definitely not pocket watch size. I mean, obviously, it depends each on the on each individual plant in terms of how big it is, but they're big. You know, they are very big and you need you need to be able to put them on-site.

New builds are obviously easier because you you can do this all in once rather than retrofitting onto particular site because you've got to be able to to have that that space and access there. But it is a it is a significant piece of infrastructure. I mean, I think as we sort of see capture technologies evolving, things things will change there. But they are they are very late very large.

They're not multiple football field size. They are, you know, they're not bigger than the power station itself. But but it is we are talking about a big piece of infrastructure that needs to be constructed right next to right next to these industries. So, you know, when we're talking about, some of the other industries about refineries, cement plants, etcetera, it is one of the challenges is that you've got to build this capture plant next right next to on the same site as these industries to be able to to operate successfully there.

So, you know, with there are many variables about where where it's viable and it has to be obviously next to a pipeline that can transport the c o two out to the storage.

But also you've got, you know, you do have to have space and be able to to operate these these capture plants right next to, industries. And that's not always possible from from how they're located and structured and, obviously, you know, often in big industrial parks. So it's, it is something that that has to be really carefully considered.

Can we just talk to each of the letters in in turn? So the the capture bit and then the storage bit and then the utilization bit, which is the bit that's been fairly recently added, onto is that right? Because some people talk about it, some people don't. The capture bit, what's what does the plan actually do?

So it captures c o two. Thinking about it as if it was a combustion vehicle, an old, you know, an old fashioned combustion vehicle. I I can think about putting a balloon on the exhaust pipe of a combustion vehicle. Is it like that?

Is that what you're doing? You're just capturing the exhaust gases and and putting them somewhere, or do you have to scrub them? Do you have to clean them? Do you have to apply a process to them?

Yeah. You you essentially so you're capturing a bit for post combustion, emissions, you're capturing those, emissions. So you're capturing it at the point source and and removing the CO2. So there's there's three types of capture. There's post combustion capture, pre combustion, and, oxy fuel combustion. And they, you know, to get altogether, I mean, those those capture methods, can capture more than ninety five percent of the of the CO2.

So it's there are different capture methods. So I don't know how how much you would want me to go into detail. But essentially, it's separated out.

And many of the most common uses amine based using solvents, to separate out at the c o two. And then the CO2 is then compressed and transported gone on to your next next letter in the acronym, but it's compressed and transported out to a storage site or or utilization, plant. And that's normally carried out by, by pipeline or ship. So this yeah.

It's separated out, using using a solvent process and then, transported by pipeline or ship and then either used in a product. So for the utilization part, it's either then incorporated into a product and it depends on the type of product about for for how long that that c o two stays in that product. You know, something like food and drink can be quite temporary but, used in in building materials and and aggregates then it can be much longer term. Or it's stored and then it's injected into a suitable storage site which is deep under the seabed.

So it's it's around one to between one and three kilometers below the seabed.

And that can often be I mean, most commonly depleted oil and gas fields, but also deep saline formations. And then it's injected into those and stored there in perpetuity.

So what we're so what we're proposing here is that industry and power generation that produces carbon, we build new plant next to it that captures that carbon, and then we get it offshore. We have to get it through onto through a pipeline and then onto a share pour. Well, yeah, that.

And then you get it offshore to an old gas or oil well, and then you pump it down under the ground, and then it's there for good.

Yep. Okay.

In in simple terms. Yeah. I mean, there are also there is onshore storage in in other parts of the world. In the in the UK and Europe, we're not looking on stores onshore storage at the moment.

In UK, we're not not there are no plans to look at onshore storage. We have huge potential in terms of our geological storage because we've we've got the North Sea, and the Irish Sea. There are a lot of, depleted oil and gas fields there, that can be used as as well as saline aquifers. We've got a third of Europe's potential, geological c o two storage.

And all, you know, that's equivalent to all the other EU states combined and Norway has very slightly more. So there's huge opportunity there and huge potential that, you know, we don't need to look at look at onshore. We we know how to to we're familiar with the the offshore. We've got skills and expertise in the UK to do that.

And so that's where storage is.

Because we've got so much so we've got so many oil and gas fields that we've depleted over time for the oil and gas in the North Sea and elsewhere that now we can find these old wells, that we never we kind of would have decommissioned them, put behind us. We can now find a new use for them by, storing carbon in them.

Yep. Yep. Essentially.

And there are other I mean, around the world, I think lots of countries are looking at their potential to do this. So, you know, Norway is is already doing it and and has a significant potential in terms of their geological storage. But the UK, again, a lot. But, yeah, as you mentioned, the US, you know, is also is also doing a lot. There are many countries around the world that are now looking to deploy and CCUS.

But a lot of it depends on a, having the emissions, and so the need, to store, but also the potential in terms of what what's what's the offshore storage potential there.

Yeah. There must be a it's almost like the the market for storing c o two needs a minimum amount of emissions for the numbers to make sense. So you almost have this this this weird incentive, which is the incentive for the store store to to make storage make sense is to build a energy system in the future that actually is reliant on burning more fossil fuels. Because you have to get this thing at scale.

Right? Because a small scale if you if you gotta build all these plants and then pipelines are expensive and all the compression stations and all the other stuff, you really need to do this at a massive scale to make it work. So there is a need you need a so the demand side is a I get confused on this side. The demand and supply side, whichever one it is, is a key part of the economics of making carbon capture and storage work.

Yeah. I mean, I I think I'd disagree on that. I mean, we have more than enough emissions.

You know, even with making the reductions, that we don't need to be we don't need to be looking to create more, there is certainly a need. And in terms of the UK's overall emissions and then we've looked in the CCSA, we've looked at the overall pipeline of projects. And we know I think the UK emissions now is something like three hundred and ninety, million tons, I think, per annum. I need to double check that. But in the UK, we've looked at the pipeline of projects that are looking to deploy CCUS.

And that's, comes up to ninety two million tons of CO2 per year. So, you know, where there are many more emissions. We're not we're not looking to create more emissions to to and we know that we've got to deploy at scale. What about, pipelines?

So are we what's the plan with transporting this stuff around the place?

Or do do you have to let's talk about locations.

Do do you have to let's talk about locations.

Do you have to build let's talk of clusters. There's it sounds it's very hydrogen y in that you need to be there's a localized aspect to it. You probably need to be closer to the offshore place where you're gonna store it or use it. So how are you guys thinking about location and and all of that?

I mean, the UK has taken this approach, and and we are now third time, around in terms of the UK at at getting close to deploy deploying CCUS.

But this time, I think that the key difference is well, one is that net zero is in legislation. So there's an absolute key driver there that that we have to get there. And the second is is taking this cluster approach, which, which hadn't been taken previously.

And so this is really looking at groups of emitters, industrial emitters, and then building one set of infrastructure around the pipeline and the store that those emitters can then share that infrastructure.

And it's seen as a far less risky approach because you haven't got one emitter relying on one store and one store relying on one emitter, which is obviously a much more high risk approach. And so, a number of stores that can then share this infrastructure. So, by doing so, you know, you will build a pipeline that that will ideally take a route through, these emitters that make sense that will be the most cost efficient and cost effective solution.

And I think now we're sort of seeing globally that this type of approach is now is now being rolled out and seen as as the most efficient way to go. And from, you know, it has multiple benefits. So, yes, you you're able to decarbonize a number of industries at the same time. They can share that infrastructure, but also the industries in, you know, particularly in the UK, the areas we're looking at, it's the East Coast, it's Humber, Northwest, South Wales.

These are all our key industrial areas. And so, those industries have got to decarbonize one way or another. If they don't decarbonize, there are, you know, they can either potentially offshore move somewhere else or some of them are looking at closing down. So, by developing this infrastructure, you also get those industries a new means of life.

So, we can retain jobs and skills in those area. We can revitalize those industrial then export and scale. But one of the elements that will come out of that is a new low carbon products market. So we'll talk about low carbon cement, low carbon steel.

And and that these products will then be sold on the open market and there'll be a demand for those as we start to see, more more countries sort of move towards delivering net zero. So the whole approach makes economic sense, but it also makes a sort of social economic sense as well in terms of of how we're dealing with it. I mean, you asked about transport. It's not purely pipe.

It's it's pipeline in in these industrial clusters where that makes sense. But there are some industrial clusters that aren't located right next to a store. And there's also been a lot of work looking at non pipeline transport, so shipping road or rail. And, an awful lot of work in terms of looking at the shipping of CO2. So to move the CO2 from an industrial area, that will be then, moved onto a ship, would be piped onto a ship, But then the ship will transport it around to a store and then it'll be injected either, you know, at the on the harbor or or just offer on on a hub offshore. So there are various it's starting now to build up in terms of how else can we transport it and how can we also target those industries that won't be in a cluster to a to a store?

Interesting. Okay. Let's talk about let's go back to power decarbonization. Okay. So what are the first large scale CCUS projects that we're gonna see, and when are we gonna see them?

In the UK, I mean, there's a the government has set a target for net zero power by two thousand and thirty five. And that could require, I guess, around ten gigawatts of power generation with CCUS, and which will potentially require around sort of eighteen million tons of CO2 to be captured and stored per year. There is also a target of of having one CCUS power plant by two thousand and thirty.

So the two targets government targets don't exactly, line up and and mirror, but where we are in the to get this clear.

Right? So we've got gotta have ten gigs by twenty thirty five, which is, let's say, five to ten combined cycle units.

Five really big ones and ten normal sized ones. And then but we've gotta do one by twenty thirty. We gotta get moving with this thing if it's gonna happen.

We've definitely gotta get moving with this, not already happened?

What's the what's the the hold up?

The I mean, I I just say I mean, I think your first question was how long have I worked? And as I joined the CCSA, three years ago, just before they launched the cluster sequencing process. So I can very clearly see the the progress that the UK has made and and where we are. So we are now three years in. We've designed some really good business models. There's a a world leading regulatory framework legislation is in place with the energy bill that was passed, last autumn.

All the components are there. We had twenty billion, committed from the the treasury in the spring budget last year, towards early deployment of CCS.

And we are now in negotiating just for CCS?

Twenty million for early early deployment of of carbon capture and storage.

So the the the building blocks are all there. So we're now in the in the process, the government selected eight projects to to move into negotiations. So there's two clusters, one on the East Coast and one on in Liverpool Bay, Hyonet.

And eight projects that could connect to those. And they are in negotiations with government, and we're hoping that we'll see some final investment decisions in September this year. They've run a competitive process and it's been, you know, a a very long process. We also had a year of, a sort of political turmoil in the UK, during the last three year period.

So that delayed things quite a lot in terms of getting things through, getting decisions made. So I think everyone would agree it's taken a bit longer than anticipated this time, but we are now sort of nearing nearing the stages. But of those eight projects, one of those is a power plant. So you asked about where we are with with that.

So we should see one in place by two thousand and thirty, but I think that power plant is is eight hundred and sixty megawatts. So when you talked about the ten ten gigawatts and and where we are with eight hundred and sixty megawatts that we've got a way to go.

Well, a big plan, though.

Eight hundred and sixty megawatts is a big plan. And, if you guys can make this happen, that's pretty incredible. Yeah. And so it's on that plant, will will will a hundred percent of the CO two be captured?

Capture rates in the in the business models are all so the government has designed these business models and and capture rates are are meant to be around ninety five percent.

So Okay.

Wow.

All of all of it will be captured but with a capture rate of, you know, estimating around ninety five percent.

So yeah.

It is it is significant. And I think for us, it's really important to get these first projects built. We have to start building it to, to get the infrastructure built so that people can start to see it, believe it. The first projects there, we can learn from those and and keep rolling out.

I mean, the government's target is that we have that we're capturing twenty to thirty million tons by two thousand and thirty. And that increases almost doubles to fifty six fifty to sixty million tons by two thousand and thirty five. So there's huge ambition. We've got a lot of growth that we've we've got to get to.

But as I said, you know, in the CCSA, we've done piece of work looking at the pipeline of projects.

And and we we know of projects that together add up to around ninety four million tons. So, you know, we need around half of them to to go forward to meet that two thousand and thirty five, target. So there is a huge there is a huge challenge here, but and and a huge opportunity. And we know we have the emissions there that that need to be captured.

So I think it's just pressing forward and keeping that momentum and keeping the industry moving. I mean, at the and I think it's worth saying, you know, you when we talked about the the twenty billion pounds that the government has committed, the industry we estimate way that the business models are structured, it's a contract for difference, business model is very it's very a contract for difference, business model. It's very it's very similar to what we've had for offshore wind. So essentially, it's topping up the the carbon price until the carbon price is sufficiently high to to drive this itself.

And so any any drawing on public funding, on the government funding won't be until these projects are operational.

So all this private investment is is front loading. You know, it's all being put there to to build these projects. There's billions of pounds already being put in to move forward with these projects. And then only at the point at which they start to to operate is is when that government funding will be called upon to to bridge that gap.

And the government funding is, yeah, so that's that's interesting. So it's a contra for difference, which is, essentially a subsidy like the renew like, the offshore wind subsidy you know, renewable subsidy.

And the bet is the carbon price will recover to an amount to a price that is economically viable. What what it what price is that? So at the moment, carbon's about ten quid, something like that, isn't it, in the UK? I have to double check this morning.

What carbon price higher than that. Bit higher than that. Yes. It was it was like it went up to eighteen ninety, and it's just down.

It hit the floor.

Yeah. I think it's around forty, I think, at the moment.

Forty. Right. I'm I'm miles out then. So what carbon price do these projects need?

Million dollar question. I mean, they are it's, it ranges and it ranges across the projects. I mean, I we are not in these final negotiations with government, so we don't know where these final we don't know where these final numbers are coming out. I know that, I was at something yesterday and somebody was talking about projects in the US, removal projects, the BECS projects.

I think that we're looking at three hundred and fifty dollars per ton, but they're at the the upper end of this. So it's there is a there is a range and I probably wouldn't want to put a number on in in this type of conversation, but it will, you know, we have done modeling to say that the numbers as the as the carbon price goes up, but also as the industry is deployed at scale, these numbers are going to fall. And we will, you know, as the also the low carbon products markets takes off, there will be extra incentive here. And, and for the removals market as well, you know, the all of these components will start to produce a package that we we expect to see if everything is put in place, if these frameworks are put in place and work effectively, we would expect to see a government funding starting to to fall significantly from the twenty early 2030s onwards.

So it's about pump priming the market and and moving it forward. And and whatever pound per ton we come out at at the beginning in the initial negotiations, those numbers will fall. And particularly as well as the clusters fill up and you have more projects using that shared infrastructure of cost will then, of course, decrease. I mean, there are projects in, the UK that are already looking at doing it without subsidy. So, you know, there there it's not all driven by subsidy.

And if they're, you know, if they can get How does that work?

Doing it without subsidy at the moment. If there isn't a demand side, if there isn't a market for the carbon, how do how can a project make sense without a government subsidy?

There are some in terms of there are some some utilization, projects that are already operating and and moving forward and and making products out of that c o two, and they don't need government subsidy to, to move forward. But also those are looking at supplying sustainable air fuel, there is a market there that can help to drive that. So it's not all there are already markets that are developing in in in place. So it doesn't all need subsidy. But for something like some of the industries that we're looking at, the cement industry, you know, we will need subsidy to top up Yeah. That at the at the moment. And then we'd hope that once the carbon prices recovers, and it's sufficiently high and once there are low there's a low carbon product market there to sell that low carbon cement And and with the low carbon border, adjustment mechanism in place to, you know, to make sure that that can move across, borders then all these components will start to build up that whole business case.

Right. Now for the last two questions, the two most exciting questions. Firstly, anything you wanna plug, anything you wanna get out to our listeners, big announcements, big projects, anything like that that you wanna talk about?

I think I mean, the key the key thing for us is that we we really want the cost of program to move forward. So we're expecting these final investment decisions for the first projects, to move forward from that. We're also looking at the potential of cross borders. So the the UK could have you know, we have more than enough storage to store our own domestic emissions.

There is a huge potential there to also store emissions from from neighboring countries or elsewhere where the c o two can be shipped to those stores. And obviously, the CCSA, we play a really key role in in pulling the industry together and driving that forward and learning across the industry. But also, you know, we do that, globally as well, and engage with projects, all over. We have a big conference in, in October where we bring all those global players together.

We had eight hundred and fifty, delegates there last year, really looking at some of the key issues in terms of what's, you know, how do we move through consenting points? What are the key points around the technologies? How can we move some of the new technologies forward and get them to deploy at scale? What learnings can we provide from each of the projects that are moving?

So and also bringing the investors, and insurers to the to the conversation, I think to make sure that they're also engaged. They understand the industry, they understand the opportunities and and the risks there and and how they can then get involved. So I think for us, it's about being transparent, making sure that, that everyone is aware of the benefits of of carbon capture that they can really promote that globally, you know, within we need it within the UK but also globally. And I think moving forward as as an industry and helping to dispel some of those myths that, you know, this is just oil and gas in perpetuity and and, you know, really helping to move that forward.

So we've got quite a lot of, you know, we need work around acceptance of net zero and the and the public perception piece here is really critical.

So I think, yeah. I mean, from our point of view, it's have a look at the CCSA website. Look at the resources they have there. Think about joining the industry trade association, but also come to the, come to the events, come to the conference and and help us, you know, for any decision makers. I think listening it's to really push pull together and, and deploy this industry. I think if we don't, we're just losing time. And and as I said right at the beginning, you know, all all the scenarios point towards we have to have CCUS in some form.

And we'll need removals longer term, you know, to to perhaps move. So when there are residual emissions post two thousand and fifty, we're gonna have to have removals to, to make sure that we are at net zero beyond that point. So, it's, it's around really moving forward quickly and getting getting these projects underway.

Alright. What's your contrarian view?

I don't think I I have one. I think I think, really, it's well, I think we need to be industry that that is deploying at scale.

With any new projects, there will be things that don't quite work out as as anticipated or expected. And I think we need to be prepared for that, be realistic about what they're going to look like, learn from it, be transparent. And we can do that globally. Any any CCUS project is is a project that we can learn from and look at.

We know the technology works. So, let's pull together to kind of work at how we can how we can move this. So, I think a sort of realistic position there in terms of of how it doesn't. And don't, you know, without buying technologies against each other, I don't think that's a sort of useful view here.

So I think some reason Well, you've got one thing there.

So you say there's a few things you've said there that I thought were really interesting, but you said we know the technology works. But do we know this technology work? Well, I I don't think we do know that this technology works at a scale that we want to do it.

I think I mean, the the projects that have been in operation and project sort have been doing this.

It's not at the scale that we need to get to, but they have been doing I think the projects in Norway is storing two million tons a year and have been doing that for twenty five years. So obviously, we're talking about significant scaling up if we're going to get to twenty to thirty million tons by two thousand and thirty. But it is the same technology and the technology is only going to improve. There are lots new lots of new capture technologies that are that are coming on.

And I think when you speak to the engineers and and those involved, this isn't you know, for for a lot of them, I think, they see this as as really a low risk. Storing c o two is not is not we're not storing a a flammable product here. We're not it's not it's not, as tricky as as oil and gas. It's you know, they understand how it behaves.

There'll be ongoing monitoring and verification in terms of those stores and looking at what's what's done there. You know, we know how pipelines work. There's nothing particularly new in any part of this industry. It is just the scaling up and and moving things at scale.

And I think that's the big challenge, you know, in the UK for us to build big infrastructure.

Can we do that? Can we take those risks? Can we move forward and and operate quickly? Women we're seeing things move really quickly in China.

Europe is actually moving quite quickly now. The Middle East, you know, there are countries where I think you can make a decision and then you can start doing it pretty quickly. And we will start seeing things at scale quite quickly there. You know, we are we have quite long consenting processes.

We have to go through planning regimes. There's lots of lots of mechanisms in place. I think in the UK, lots of paperwork, lots of red tape to make sure that we're we're building something sort of that that ticks all the boxes and and and meets our requirements. But it does mean it makes it make it a bit slower.

Well, twenty billion pounds promised by the government, there's a hell of a kick start. This thing is gonna happen, like or not, I think, and we gotta do it in the most efficient capital efficient way as we possibly can. I wanna say a massive thank you to you, Olivia, for coming on the podcast. I come at things from a very almost, I'm not an electrification absolutist, but I do think a lot more things can be sold through electrification than than than more electrification is generally the the the best allocation of capital. And so I really appreciate you coming on and some of my difficult questions handling them really well. So thank you very much indeed.

Thank you for having me. And I think, yes, this isn't instead of electrification, I think. I think, as well as so, I hope you can sort of see all those solutions working in the round.

Alright. Thank you. Until next time.

Great. Well, thank you for having me.

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