Behind the scenes of BESS integration with Zach Vosburg (VP @ FlexGen)

Welcome back to another episode of transmission. Today, we're exploring battery energy storage with Zach Vossberg, VP of corporate strategy at FlexGen. In this episode, Q and Zach discuss battery availability during critical market events, AI applications in energy storage, and why batteries are perfectly suited to solve what Zack calls four hour problems, not twenty four hour problems. If you're enjoying transmission, please leave a like and subscribe.

Now, let's dive into the future of energy storage with Zac Vozberg.

Hey, Zac. Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me. I'm I'm glad to be here.

Oh, you're very welcome. So let's talk about FlexGen then. What's FlexGen about?

Well, FlexGen, we are a services and software provider to the battery storage space. We basically have kinda two sides of our business. The first upfront is to is to provide per integration services, get batteries up and running. The second part of our business is to to keep those batteries running at optimal performance.

Right? So, fundamentally, FlexGen does two things. We we turn batteries on and we we keep batteries on. On the front end, that includes things like system engineering, procurement, commissioning, site design, getting that that system up and running.

And then once we reach commercial operation, our life cycle services team will kinda take over. The hybrid OS software runs those systems, and we provide remote monitoring, data and analytics, performance engineering, preventative and corrective maintenance, everything that's sort of necessary for keeping a battery storage site up and running.

Alright. And is it just batteries that you do? Because I I thought you did other renewables as well.

Well, I mean, we often work to to integrate battery storage systems and collocated systems with with storage or, you know, we can do so with with gas generators or wind. And, ultimately, our EMS software is capable of of performing energy management with with all sorts of different combinations of of hardware.

But FlexGen is fundamentally a hardware agnostic company. We're we're a software first company that focuses on integrating every sort of combination of commercially viable energy storage and related, you know, interconnected equipment. And our so our whole thesis is to stay hardware agnostic and use software to solve problems and and ultimately be customer accessed through obsessed through that that part of the the service offering rather than as a a manufacturer or a trading optimizer. Those sometimes it's best to think about the things that Flexion doesn't do to make sure to narrow it down a little bit. And we we don't make anything. We don't make any batteries, and then we don't do the trading on the back end either. We just make sure that that the folks that we work with have a a optimally tuned system so that when you press the button, it goes.

Tell me a little bit about the business. How long has it been going? Where is it based? How many people are in the company? And some example customers.

Yeah. I would say Flexgen's been around for a little over fifteen years now. So, like, in a battery storage market that is really quite nascent, you know, in in any real way that you would look at it as probably really only a couple years old. Right?

But Flexgen has been around working on solutions in this space for fifteen years, which sort of gives us a distinct advantage in having developed market leading software for for managing these types of systems. We're currently about a two hundred and fifty person company. We serve utility customers, IPPs, co ops, you know, any sort of eventual owner or operator of a battery storage system is a potential customer for FlexGen. And we we contract with them in various ways, but, really trying to be the the convenient counterpart to make sure that any battery storage system can get can get up and running and stay highly available so so that they can get the most out of those systems.

So if I was gonna ask you about the challenges faced by battery developers or owners, it's all a bit silly at the moment because we're recording this on April eleventh, and it's been ahead of a week in the markets. We've had tariff announcements and rollbacks and all sorts of stuff that that are gonna be incredibly disruptive to our sector, especially battery folks in the US.

And I think it's fair to say there's not really much intelligent that we can talk about related to that because it's, hyperbole.

I think I think you're right. You know, we've we've certainly been doing some work over here over the last weeks trying to understand and and scenario plan. And every time we plug something into the model and get through the analysis, something changes and we have to update it. And it's it's sort of a fool's errand at the moment because of the the amount of constant change.

But I think, you know, what gives me a lot of hope in all of this is ultimately that the value proposition of battery storage hasn't changed. In fact, it's probably getting stronger and stronger in a lot of the market tailwinds that we that we had before these moments of uncertainty remain both you know, they're the same, but also maybe even even stronger. While we come through this period of uncertainty, you know, there'll be certain ups and downs, but I I think that battery storage in itself sits in a really advantaged spot to to to continue to grow with all sorts of different use cases and applications.

I think that the data center opportunity for batteries is enormous and a tailwind that will be prioritized by this administration and others regardless of what's going on. So that's certainly an area of growth that we're excited about. And, yeah, there will be uncertainty for a period of time and that is undeniable, but, we will power through and inflection, as we like to say, we will power on.

So we'll we'll keep moving forward.

And if you're listening to this episode, who knows what's happened between April eleventh and Yeah. And now sound getting into your ears. Yeah. Okay. Before we get to some juicy topics like availability and collocation, Zac, I wanna ask you about your role. So you're vice president of corporate strategy at FlexGem. So what does the vice president of corporate strategy do?

Yeah. Especially at a at a smaller two two hundred, two hundred and fifty person company, I end up wearing quite a few different hats, I suppose. I have traditional responsibilities in the kind of the the corporate development setting where we, you know, evaluating strategic transactions, corporate partnerships.

I worked closely with our partners to to do our series c a couple years ago and and those types of activities, also responsible for our sort of investor relations and work with our investor base. But also then all sorts of unique and special projects internally sort of creating business plans for new service offerings. And one of the things that I did early in my tenure at FlexGen was sort of work on the business case for our life cycle solutions business, which is the the part that I discussed earlier where we provide data and analytics, remote monitoring, performance engineering, all of the sort of commercial operation focused, services to keep availability high.

Sort of built out that business unit, kind of acted as the interim manager for for a time before before handing that off to a much more capable director that we've hired for that business. But yeah. So I I it really runs the gamut in terms of the things that I get to be a part of here at FlexGen, and it's never never a boring day. And, it's been a great switch from my previous life in investment banking.

Alright. Now let's talk about availability. Right? Because this is this is crucial to you guys.

So battery availability is a massive topic, and it's essential to participating in markets, especially in markets like ERCOT where you've gotta be online for a handful of days to make half your revenue. Right? So can you talk through some of the causes of battery downtime that you think about flex gen, and what does best practice look like for owners and operators who are trying to figure out and mitigate these risks?

Yeah. I think that first and foremost, we think that, you know, it's important to have robust and capable software that that that can control those systems and keep them online to evaluate the various anomalies that might be detected in the system that without trained and advanced software and good monitoring professionals might cause you to experience downtime. If they take you offline, you wouldn't know what to do. But with Flexion software, we'll be able to keep those systems online.

And when certain anomalies rise to the to the level of needing a interaction, you know, we have a a trained remote operation center in a in a industry leading field team that will allow us to kinda detect the problem as it's happening, evaluate what we need to do, and then act on it quickly regard whether that's a remote fix or rolling a truck and getting somebody out there quickly. The best thing is for the system to never go offline and, you know, we think that hybrid OS software keeps keeps those systems online quite well. But then, you know, when something does happen and it requires some action, we try to complete that that cycle of detecting, evaluate, and acting as quickly as possible to get those systems back up and running.

And I think that having a partner that understands how to do that quickly is is key.

So so you mentioned hybrid OS there. Just just if you could quickly give us a rundown of what that software actually does.

Yeah. Hybrid OS is a is an energy management system. Right? It sits at the center of the of the larger system. It's you know, there is a battery management system on the battery itself. It and everything sort of comes in through a central software system that is Hybrid OS, whether it's the battery, the the power converter, the inverter, the balance of plant equipment, the fire suppression systems, the signals from the grid for participating in grid services, all of those things kind of flow through a centralized software system that allows for for you to respond in in milliseconds to various signals and things that allow for that battery system to do what what it's designed to do.

And so you mentioned earlier colocation. Right? So if you've got let's say you've got a, solar site and a battery asset on one side. Does your FlexOS software manage how all of that power is used on-site and the the solar curve and the self consumption and then export to grid is all is all managed properly?

That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. We have we kinda call it the power plant controller in that instance, but it's part of the hybrid OS fleet of of offerings is to have that power plant controller that sits between that colocated asset and the battery and and sort of coordinate between, you know, pushing the the the solar to the grid when it's needed or or storing it in the battery.

And I think that this is a really key application. Right? I mean, any single day that I choose to do, you know, jump on the the Kaiso dashboards, you take a look through the Central Valley, and you're looking at negative prices through the middle of the day when the sun is shining and you're just you're like, ah, what an opportunity. And then, you know, you scroll further down those dashboards and see the curtailment that's happened in those areas over the last few days and you say, what what a what a waste of what a a waste of energy that could have been put out onto the grid at a different time, but but it had to be curtailed.

And so I think that, you know, we'll see more and more of this colocation especially with renewables, howling for the kind of the integration of renewables and addressing that intermittency and making sure that we don't we don't waste energy. We're not curtailing and blowing it off into the wind, as it may be.

Coming back to your job, Zach. So as vice president of corporate strategy, and you mentioned that you lead on fundraising for the business. Yeah. So you must you must be out there pitching the vision of FlexGen a lot. So what's the big grand bold vision for FlexGen? What does Flexjet look like in ten years' time?

What we see at Flexjet is ultimately to to prioritize the use of our of our software and service capabilities to be the energy management system that manages every single battery in the world. Right? I think that we we view ourselves as in a position to be the preeminent energy management software for the management of batteries and the other collocated assets that we've discussed. And and, ultimately, ten years from now, there's certainly, you know, an aspiration for FlexGen to be that that energy management system that controls everything.

Right? I'm here on a Lenovo laptop, but being heart hardware agnostic like like Windows, FlexGen ultimately wants to be the same whether you bring a Lenovo, a Dell, and HP to the equation. We won't make the box, but we're gonna make the box work. And and that's really what we endeavor to do is to be the convenient counterparty in the central point to make all of these incredible systems that that OEMs and innovators are are working so hard to change and ultimately to make sure that they work, that they tie to the grid, and that we can make a, you know, harmonious connection between one generation of technology to the next.

And that's why our sort of our hardware agnosticism is really quite important and and why we design our software and our service offering in that way.

Alright.

So every battery in the world controlled by FlexGen one day. Yeah. So let's switch lanes now. Let's talk about AI and optimization because I know this is a topic that, means a lot to you.

Certainly.

Where where where to start with this? I mean, AI driven optimization is just a massively growing topic for discussion. So what are the real practical applications of AI right now in up in storage optimization, And where do you see the most impact in the future? Yeah.

I think that, you know, we, like so many businesses, are are trying to adopt AI workflows into as many areas of our business as possible. Right? Everybody you talk to today is saying if you're not adopting AI, you're falling behind very quickly, and we certainly believe that and are trying to adopt AI workflows into into everything that we do. Some examples of what we do at FlexGen kind of on the front end in the kind of integration phase, you know, FlexGen uses AI tools to map the control languages between different OEMs and different for per DC blocks and inverters and how to make sure that the communication protocols between those devices are perfectly mapped.

It used to be a very manual task taking sitting down with the modbus maps of those different pieces of hardware and mapping things with different names to one another and making sure that open contactors here means open contactors with the other piece of equipment and they're gonna speak the same language. We now do that through an AI driven tool that that will map those things together quite accurately and quickly, and our ability to integrate new OEM packages and combinations has been accelerated dramatically.

Also, sort of in that front end turning batteries on phase that what I discussed earlier, we use AI workflows to automate various commissioning tasks, including things like our system testing and and and protocols that used to be done with a a field technician with a cat five cable plugged into the to the battery storage system out in the field in a hundred and ten degrees running that test. And and now, you know, we get the the software installed quickly on that system and we make a quick call or send a a Slack message back to our remote operation center and and ask them to go run tests that that can now be done fully remotely in an automated fashion.

And that person that's sitting out there in the field doesn't have to run that whole test the entire time. They can do it in in a more automated fashion. On the back end, you know, once we reach commercial operation, I think that this is an area that we use AI pretty pretty robustly. Right?

I think that our software is ingesting millions of data points every day. We use those data points to analyze, you know, the preconditions to alerts and alarms and find ways to say, alright. We saw this alarm. What were the conditions that were present in the system before this?

And using using AI to say, alright. We can come up with some predictive analytics that allow us to see these conditions and make alerts before there are alerts, if you will. Right? And that's really quite important.

And, of course, like, as we see more and more things and we ingest more and more data, the the AI models are able to identify more of these conditions. We're able to automate the work flows that allow us to react to those conditions. I think that, you know, earlier, I said something about detect, evaluate, and act in that sort of a a circular workflow that we think about in in many of these situations? Can we detect what's happening, evaluate what the plan needs to be, and then act on it?

Right? And and in the beginning, of course, that's a very manual task done by a remote operations engineer. And but as we do it more and more and as we work through standard operating procedures, we can use AI and automation to to take those workflows and accelerate them so that that cycle of detecting, evaluating, and acting is much quicker.

So what what are the real challenges for come back to your part. Your power part controller or there's loads of different names for this thing, right, where you you provide a system that brings together the different containers or mega packs or whatever and, the balance of plant and everything all in one system, which is a very, very difficult problem to solve because you have, you know, balancing issues to manage and SCADA and various other things. But one of the problems that many asset owners have is that sometimes when they press the button so I've got a fifty megawatt asset, and I need fifty megawatts of power.

What they see at the meter at the boundary meter to the outside world, often isn't fifty megawatts because of a complex system of losses and control issues and ramping and air conditioning load and auxiliary load and all these things that kind of add up and end end up with this world where you don't get what you thought you were gonna get, which is, firstly, that's suboptimal because you may not make the money that you expected. But there's also a big in certain markets, there's a there's a penalty risk there. Right? Because you have to make up the difference in what you're obligated and what you delivered.

So how how do you at FlexGen think about that problem? And this is a bit of a layup to you, really. I I don't know what I don't know what your answer's gonna be to this question, but how do you solve that problem? And how big of a problem is it?

And can you get there? Can you get to the point where the asset owner or the optimizer says, I want a hundred megawatts, and you guys will make sure you get it?

Yeah. No. I I mean, you've identified a very important point. Right? And I think it's something that we're we're keenly aware of.

It's not just availability, but it's having full capacity, full depth of discharge. And when you bid into a market with x, you're gonna deliver x, not eighty percent of x and take a penalty for for not delivering. Right? You're absolutely right.

And I think that this is done for us with our, you know, proprietary state of health and state of charge algorithms that we have that differ than from what was originally from the the OEM, we can fine tune the ability to to get the absolute most out of a system. Right? I think one of the things that that we identified is that, like, a lot of folks were just using their batteries between twenty and eighty percent, and they were leaving a lot of capacity on the table because when they would go outside of those, they might trip. And that was because they had inaccurate state of charge information from the OEM.

Those OEM systems might be more conservative, and and they would trip offline early because there would be there would be imbalances or something like that. And I think that what we've focused on here at Flexion is how do we how do we get more out of those systems and and what we've done is to develop in house to create a, you know, state of charge and state of health algorithm that allow us to understand exactly how that specific battery asset is performing, how it's been used, how it's been used in the past, how much it's degraded, and and use that to give a very, very specific to that installation a a state of charge that allows you to be have much more confidence and bid a larger margin of that total capacity that you expect to have into the market, get paid for it, and not come up short when you bid x and hit.

You wanna hit a hundred percent of x.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's a massive problem.

It really is. It really is. And I think that it also includes quite a bit of collaboration with our with our life cycle services team within our remote operation center. They're experienced battery operators and understand and can sort of we need to operationalize the the knowledge, right, within software so that it's easier for folks to have that that in-depth battery operation knowledge. And so we're working to take what we have sort of institutionally and include it in our software such that it's easier for the folks who who are operating these batteries to do it themselves. Right? And sort of that's a a real value proposition of the hybrid OS software system and a partnership with our life cycle services team.

I just wanna go back on something you said previously because you said that FlexGen and your software is agnostic to the type of hardware. Right? So you wanna integrate with any battery type.

That's right.

Which sounds fantastic. And you use the Lenovo you're using a Lenovo laptop, and it runs Microsoft. And Microsoft is the example of it being hardware agnostic, which I kinda get. Right?

Yeah. And that sounds great. But I've gotta ask you a couple of questions about it because in practice, it's a lot more difficult. If we just use your example with Microsoft, for example, yes.

They're hardware hardware agnostic. But then for decades, they relied on chips being the x eighty six architecture, for example, not to get too niche here, but Intel chips. I remember when Microsoft was available on AMD when I was just a lad. I was nine or ten years old building computers, and it you could suddenly use Microsoft on, XP or Windows ninety five on AMD, and it changed the whole world.

And my point is here, you can be hardware agnostic, but there needs to be some guardrails. Right? Because Of course. There needs to be some sort of framework.

Because you could end up spending ninety percent of your r and d costs as a business on integrating with niche tier four suppliers, doing modbus integrations over WeChat with all these language barriers or whatever. That's not me. There's no disrespect to China in that. It's just it's it's complicated stuff integrated with all these different batch manufacturers and inverter types and whatnot.

So then my question to you is, how do you actually manage that in practice? Because I know that there's doing some of this work in my previous company. Yeah. It it can it can turn out to be quite the nightmare.

How do you make sure that you don't spend ninety percent of your r and d cost integrating with these niche manufacturers?

Yeah. And I I think you're right. I mean, we we have a pretty at Flexion, we have a very rigorous vendor selection process. We don't we won't integrate just anybody who makes a battery, obviously.

Right? There need to be certain quality standards. There needs to be various common communication protocols and various things. Our technical team, you know, our software team would be more capable of answering this question probably than I would.

But I would say that we've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to standardize that process. And that was one of the things that I mentioned earlier when we were talking about AI tools when we have it's a it's a tool that we have internally with that we call Config Composer, and it's a it's a internal tool that creates configurations that allows us to map between different OEMs, and that is what you've just described. It is extremely hard. Right?

And it's and it's something that it is absolutely very challenging, and Flexion's job is to make that easier, right, and to standardize some of those workflows that go into creating those integrations.

Because you're right. Like, in the past, they took an an incredibly long time, and you could had a potential to to make mistakes that would have catastrophic impacts within a system, and you'd have to go start fresh. But but yeah. So I think it's it's two things. It's making sure that we have quality standards on the OEM side, but then also to to standardize the approach to bringing those those OEM pieces of equipment together in a way that that makes sense and is is done in a very standard way.

Yeah. If only everything was standardized.

That's what I'm saying is that ultimately FlexJoint wants to be that that direction of stabilization. Right? And, like, to be that that thing that brings it all together in the middle. Yeah.

You can't bring any battery, but, you you know, Flexgen has now done probably fifty or sixty different configurations of DC block and AC block and balance of plant and many, many different configurations and and even more have been mapped. Right? But, like, with this config composer tool, we can accelerate that process and create additional configurations to, you know, in the matrix between DC block and AC block and all of the different systems that we that we use. But, yeah, you're right.

It is a it is an extreme challenge, and it's not an easy thing to do. And it's really sort of one of the key value drivers of the FlexGen value proposition.

Yeah. If you can crack that, there is enormous value.

Some people know this, but when we started Mono Energy, we eventually started a company to be an optimizer. So we wanted to trade power with software and get assets in the market and control assets. And one of the underlying assumptions about our business when we thought about this in two thousand eighteen, two thousand nineteen was that in the near future, all of this was gonna be possible via API and that there would be some level of standardization and that all the assets would have redundant high bandwidth Internet. Right?

And, of course, you can do that with Starlink now, but it was a bit more difficult back then. I think that was one of the one of the worst assumptions we could have made about the business because even now, the the limitations on what you can control via API are still massive and and real. And so for a company like you to to be able to break down some of those barriers, you create a lot of value. You could get some really sticky customers.

And, ultimately, you can get more different types of combinations of assets built Yeah.

Which is a really good thing to do.

Yeah. No. I I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I think that, you know, the you were probably maybe just a little early maybe in in that assumption because I think that that's where we would like to go as well. Right?

Ultimately, the Flex gen wants to be that EMS that operationally can enable those optimizers to connect via API. We we have integrations with optimizers. We ourselves are not an optimizer. We kinda steer steer clear of that area.

But, yeah, our job is to make it so that the systems work when when doesn't matter who, it doesn't matter what the communication protocol in. When they press the button, it does what it's supposed to do. It sounds really simple, and I'm really good at, you know, saying that and making it sound somewhat simple. But the architecture behind it is is incredibly complex and is why Flexion has a pretty unique proposition in the market, I think.

Yeah. I'd love to see it in action.

Yeah. Yeah. We'd love to have you to to to Durham, actually. Well, maybe we we can bring you out and give you a tour of our innovation lab where we bring where we bring different combinations of of OEM systems to kind of pre integrate them in a laboratory setting. We've got a a one gigawatt interconnection there so we can push and pull power and do some pretty cool testing between the new DC blocks and inverter manufacturers.

We can run those testing there and and and test the configurations that we've created in that config composer I was telling you about and ultimately then kinda walk next door into the remote operation center and show you where we're monitoring. I think we've got six or seven gigawatt hours of of systems that are currently in operation and being monitored from that room and much more to come.

Wow. Huge numbers. Yeah. I'd love to come. Let let's let's get it in a diary. That sounds like fun.

It does.

So you must talk to a lot of asset owners and developers and folks who are building assets. So when you're out in the market and you're speaking to folks who are who are building these assets, what are some rules of thumb or some some guidance that you would give them when you're in conversations with them?

Of course, I I I'm biased based on our approach and our business model, but I think, you know, as we were saying, like, fundamentally, batteries are simple. Right? They they charge and they discharge. So because of that sort of simple notion, a lot of times folks get really pretty caught up on the CapEx decision and the selection of of hardware and which OEM and who they're gonna use.

And I think that that is, of course, an important selection. You gotta make sure you've got a bankable and import and a a viable partner for the long term performance of your asset. But one thing that I think that gets overlooked is is the software that's gonna control those systems, and that's what I think is sort of a a misconception is that without intelligent and capable softwares running those systems, a DC block is just a shipping container with fundamentally, you know, EV batteries wired in series in it. That's not gonna do anything.

So so we think that many entering the industry need to need to pay a little bit more attention to that on the front end and when we try to do market education to that effect. But, yeah, I think that that's a a pretty key a pretty key component of how to be successful in this industry is to to think about that on the front end.

Alright. I wanna get to our I'll ask two questions now. So is there anything that you wanna plug? You've got our audience's attention. Is there anything you wanna talk about or announce? This is your chance. So then I'm gonna ask you what is your contrarian view.

In terms of what would I like to plug, I would say that I would like to have FlexGen be the the the energy management system of every battery storage system out there. I think that we have we've proven the ability to deliver very high availability for our customers, and, I think that that's a unique differentiator for us here, and we would like to continue getting in front of as many folks as possible to tell that story. I think that one of the most exciting opportunities in the near term is going to be around data centers, obviously. Right? I think that people are very excited about the load growth that's coming there. It creates a lot of challenges, a lot of problems, but I think that battery storage as an industry is going to solve a lot of those problems or at least be an important component of the solution in addressing those issues. And, and Flexion will be right there to to to manage those for our data center and IPP customers that support those build outs.

And now your contrarian view. So what's the thing that you believe, Zach, that not a lot of other people do?

I think the batteries are gonna save the world. No. I mean, I think inflection fundamentally, we think that access to power, reliable power is really the foundation of modern human life. Right?

If we're gonna be successful in many of the goals that we have, we need to have reliable power, and fundamentally, that's sort of at risk right now. I think a lot of thing, you know, in the modern world, so many of us take for granted. We flip that light switch and it comes on. And I think that we forget or don't know the the complex system behind that light switch that is responsible for bringing that all to our homes and to our businesses every day.

And most of that system was created somewhat haphazardly and mostly, you know, I think most of the grid now is built in the sixties and seventies as in approaching the end of its useful life, and there are significant changes that need to be made. And with with the the finally you know, after some stagnant growth in demand, we're gonna see pretty significant growth there. And and in order to meet those needs, we're gonna have to make some significant changes. But, you know, luckily, I think that the problem or the challenge that we face there, at least in the short term, it's not a twenty four hour problem.

Right? One of the things that we've been saying at Flexion a lot recently is what we see, especially with the way that the the demand curve works, is that, you know, the challenge that we face, it is a four hour problem, not a twenty four hour problem. Right? We can make we can do a lot of good by addressing a four hour period of time in every day, and I hesitate to say this because it brings me back to, you know you know, COVID traumas, but we need to flatten the curve.

By taking some of that peak demand and shifting it using batteries, we can we can accelerate the deployment of all sorts of new generation, especially AI data center loads and additional manufacturing that we hope to build here and and all over the world. But the the the first problems that we need to solve is to is to address that peak demand moment. And, of course, as we grow, we're gonna have to shift the whole curve up in parallel by adding generation, but I think that a lot of challenges can be addressed upfront by solving that four hour problem. And we think that, obviously, four hour duration batteries with generation behind them are a uniquely capable tool to solve that four hour problem.

Okay, Zach. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. It was a pleasure. And, very much looking forward to the invite to come and see your testing lab.

Yeah. We'd love to have you in Durham. Awesome.

Thank you, Zach. Until next time.

Alright. Pleasure.