Why Upgrading Pumped Hydro Is Key to Grid Flexibility with Delphine Chérel-Sparham (Engie)

Hello and welcome to Transmission. Today, we're joined by Delphine, the managing director of NG's pumped hydro business. The conversation covers Dunorwig and Festiniog pumped hydro stations, how they operate, the refurbishment works that are being done, and some record breaking valves. We also talk about taking St.

Paul's Cathedral deep into the mountainside and the specifics on how these assets actually run. I particularly enjoyed the conversation on Delphine's engineering journey. Where does it all begin? How did she get hooked?

And what advice does she have for people who are interested in the space and maybe their parents? If you enjoyed this episode, please do hit like and subscribe. It really helps us reach more people. And with that, let's jump in.

Delphine, welcome to Transmission.

Thank you for your invitation. My pleasure.

Well, I'm very excited about this episode. So let's kick off with who are you and who is ENGIE?

Well, I'm Delphine.

I have more than thirty years experience, in the energy sector.

I'm an engineer by education.

I mean, my first half of my career, I was mainly, dealing with, gas, infrastructure projects, underground storage, LNG terminals, transport, both in France but also abroad. Then I spent eight years working on the oil and gas business, more as an executive, in executive roles, including in the UK. I spent some time in the UK when we used to have some oil and gas business there, so I have supporting the growth in a number of countries.

And, I would say for the last ten years, I, I joined more corporate functions mainly dealing with supervising, the industrial projects with the ENGIE group, across the world.

First, all the technologies we handled at the time, and then I moved to the renewable space because, four years ago, we totally reorganized the group to really focus on the renewable growth and the energy transition. So I led also a team there to help developing and, and building those those assets across the world. And more recently, at the end of last year, I joined, the UK, rejoined the UK to become the managing director of, our our hydro assets in the UK. So namely First Hydro.

Okay. And your hydro assets in the UK, do you want to just describe what they are?

Well, there are mainly two assets. DeNovik, which is, the biggest and the fastest cycling, pumped hydro in the whole of Europe with one point eight gigawatt of capacity. It was built, and commissioned, in nineteen eighty four. And Festenio, the older one, which was commissioned in nineteen sixty three with three hundred and sixty megawatt of capacity. So these two assets, of course, are reaching their end of life. So we do need to, refurbish them, which means basically changing the whole mechanical and electrical system, so we can give them another twenty five years of life. Okay.

Yeah. And we're definitely gonna come on to that topic in a second. But you so three three pumped hydro sites.

So Two pump two pumped hydro.

Two pumped hydro. So Festiniog, De Norweg, and then First Hydro.

Oh, First Hydro is the company who is the owner Okay. Of those assets. Yes.

Okay. Well, that clears it up. Perfect.

And then we I asked about who NGU were, and I think people will know, but let's just give a bit of context in terms of Absolutely.

So first ENGIE role in First Hydro, we are the owner of First Hydro at seventy five percent together with, our partner CDPQ, who is a, an investment fund from the from Canada who owns also twenty five percent.

NGA as a whole, well it's a it's a worldwide utility and we are committed you know to support the energy transition in all the countries we are present. We currently operate in thirty countries all across the world covering all of the energy sector from the upstream with the production through renewable, wind, solar, hydro.

We have also a fleet of CCGTs.

We also involved in all the transportation and all the infrastructure for gas and, and power transportation, and down to the distribution and also the sales to either b two b or b two c client. We also very involved into the, what we call decentralized assets and decentralized energy for third party for for clients like, towns or b two b clients, industrial clients to support their decarbonization.

For example, we are the leader in all that, what what we call heating and cooling systems in the world. We operate a number of them all across the world, in Europe, in the Middle East, in, North America, etcetera.

And from from the battery side, we obviously know your team in Australia, and we also know your team as, for example, in ERCOT as well.

Like, it's, absolutely.

NG as a business just has this huge breadth.

Absolutely. We we also aiming, of course, to accelerate in all the flexibility assets, especially batteries, but not only. We also operate power pump storage like First Hydro, but we do operate others, in Europe, like in Belgium, in Portugal, and and Germany. Mhmm.

But definitely batteries are the, fastest solution, to cope with the the the high level of intermittency brought by renewable, and it will continue to grow with the the growth of renewables. So we do need to accelerate in the in the space of batteries to support that growth.

Yeah. And let's we'll come back onto speed in a second in terms of, like, how fast you can respond and how fast you can build things. But let's let's go from very broad. Let's bring it all the way back to Dinorwig, and let's talk about what Dinorwig actually is.

Well, Dinorwig, it's well, it's it's an incredible asset. It was built in the eighties. It was built into the mountain, deep into the mountain. So there's something like sixteen kilometers of tunnels and and pipework, underneath that has been, digged there. There is, caverns, that I I was told are big enough to to have, the simple cathedral, you know, who's the estate. Okay. So first of all, you know, the civil work is incredible.

And, so that was to host all of the mechanical and electrical systems. But this is mainly two lakes. One up a lake when we where we store, the water. So we pump up, up the mountain, the water when, the the electricity is abundant, and that's especially when we have a lot of wind.

So it's a lot of renewable electricity that we are able to to use and store through that, that pumping up the the upper lake. And then when we have peak demands, we need to support the system, then we we can release this water really fast through our turbines down to the down to the lower lake. That's very simple. And in terms of principle, it's not, I mean, it's this that is has been existed for more than a hundred years, the the the the technology, but, the size of it, the scale of it is is incredible.

Okay.

And so when you say, okay, I need power, someone presses a button and water flows down these tunnels Yeah.

And hits the turbine, generates power. Absolutely.

How long does that take to Well, if we are from complete stop, it takes between thirty and sixty second to to to put to go to full power.

But we are often in, what we call a spin generation, where we basically, spinning air, and, we are synchronized with the with the grid. And we can go to full power in less than twenty second.

Okay.

So so the turbines are already spinning, and then, essentially, you're adding on It's just about opening the valve and letting the water in.

Okay. And I think listeners will then say, well, hold on. But what like, why is this thing spinning? Like, why is it in spin gen mode? What's it providing to the grid?

It does not provide anything to the grid, but it is synchronized with the grid, so in terms of frequency. So so it's it it doesn't take as long to because we already synchronized. So when we let the water in, we are ready to ready to produce and and inject to the grid. Okay. It's just that that additional, element that it it adds. Yeah.

Okay. And you mentioned with Denawegan Forsiniog that you are essentially these are these are assets that have been going well, Denawegan since nineteen eighty four, you mentioned. Yeah. And you're now starting to starting to replace parts of them. Absolutely. What does that look like?

Well, what does that look like? We already started with Festinjog.

The project started in two thousand seventeen. So we we changed already two of the units, so turbine and pump. We have two two two systems in a separate system in in Festignorg, and we are currently changing the the two remaining units. We have four units altogether in, in Festignorg.

Hopefully, this will come back in operation, during the winter twenty five, twenty six.

So that's basically what it is. We don't just remove the turbines, the pumps, refurbish and replace them with we and and put them back in place. We do replace the whole, the whole system because they're really on their last leg. I mean, I mean, you talk about flexible assets.

I will give you a figure. I think that, that not a lot of people know. We receive, instructions of changing mode on the ten units, four in first in York and six in Dinavig, we receive twenty five thousand instructions per year to change mode. I mean, talking about flexibility.

So, yes, it has also a cost for the mechanical equipment and the the electrical equipment, and that's why we need to replace them. Refurbishment will not be good enough.

So I'm thinking sort of as with an engineering head on, I'm thinking about kind of the changing rates of strain and stress on parts. It comes with a lot of stress on the all the mechanical equipment, the turbines, the valves, the pipe work, etcetera.

So yes.

Okay.

So we do replace, the bulk and the of of the units and especially the the turbine and and pumping elements.

Okay. And and I would love to know a little bit more about how you actually do that. So when when you say I need to swap out the pump, is it as easy as kind of, okay. We'll just turn off this bit here and turn off this bit here and then swap this bit out in here?

Or do you have to do you have to drain everything?

How does that work?

Well, I can give you, the the example. At the moment, we have drained, the whole station for De Novik because we are replacing the main inlet valve. So, basically at the bottom of those shafts, you imagine, we have a manifold and then we have valves, you know, that that really isolate from the turbine. So we did we do need to drain the whole station to be able to replace those valves, and that's what we're currently doing.

And we will finish by the end of this before the end of of this year. And then once this is this is done and we have a good insulation of between the water and and the rest of the equipment, then we can carry on with the replacement of the rest. But it's important, of course, we can't do that replacement with the the the station full of water. Absolutely not.

Right?

Okay. And and you used to be able to go and visit Dinorvik and go and kind of look around and and kind of see how it worked. Can can you still go today?

No. Not at the moment. We have a lot of work ongoing.

Well, as I well, Festignac was never visited, but, but for Dinovig, we already are very busy this year because we, as I said, we are in the middle of the drain down. We are replacing this huge valve, which are one hundred and sixty tons. So it's it's massive valves, two and a half meter in diameter.

This I probably one of the largest valves that exist in the world I guess.

Okay.

And and, plus a lot a number of other electrical equipment, switch gears, switch, etcetera. So it's it's really not the right time to have visitors. So we do have, occasionally some VIPs because we also want to to communicate about our beautiful assets and and what we're doing what we're investing in But, but not at the moment. But we do think that when things are a bit more back into steady state mode, we will reinstate some kind of visits. I think we we have already a a virtual visit that our communication team has, has filmed also, and, that's, I think is already available. I I'm I'm I'm going to ask my colleague, but I think it's already already available on YouTube.

That that virtual visit as it exists, and we will, reinstate certainly something in the future.

I've definitely seen one of those videos when I've when I've been looking in the past. So, we'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes.

Yes. It is possible. I think we need to do that, because, I think one of the things that strike me when I took my job, I met a lot of people, some visit some working for First Aid Draw and some from, the local area. And all of them, you know, all of them, they went. They went including the first minister of Wales who visited us the other day. All of them, they went they went their kit to visit those assets. And for some of them, it did get some appetite and curiosity to become an engineer.

I I I totally agree. I mean, I went to go and see, Ratcliffe when I was much younger. Yeah. It was a massive coal station, but still, like, it gives you a sense of the scale and and just how these things work. I think it does really kinda kick start an interest in the space.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I mean, those assets are speaking for themselves when when you have a chance to visit them, you know, I mean, the the endeavor and what the human brain can produce, you know, it's it's incredible. And that's probably one of the reason I became an engineer when I was younger. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

And going back to one of your points earlier about the just just just for the scale. So Simple's Cathedral can fit inside some of the cabins within Dinorwicke Absolutely. Which I think is just like an incredible stat in terms of size. So I'd like to ask two questions. The first one's on the valve. Where do you get the world's largest valve from?

Well, those have been manufactured by, our work, supplier, Andrez.

Okay.

So they've been fabricated in in in Germany, but with pieces coming from all over Europe.

Okay.

I mean, this is really specialized, and this is not something that that that we could have fabricated in the UK, unfortunately.

Yeah. That's super interesting. And then and then the total cost of this. So it sounds like switch gear, world's largest valves, so many components are being swapped out. What does the sort of total bill come to?

I mean, overall, the program, since we started Fastenio in two thousand seventeen, the program, it's going to be about one billion pound of refurbishment for the two stations.

So we already committed and and and invested two hundred and fifty million pounds for refurbishing Festinger and for preparing for the NOVIX. So the replacement of the main inlet valve, as I said, is the preparation and plus all of the some of the electrical switchgear that we're replacing at the moment. So that's part of the the cost already committed.

And, we would like to to commit also to spend another seven hundred and fifty million pounds to replace the six units in Dinovig, the six massive units.

So Those are the those are the things that generate power.

Absolutely. Okay. Generate power and pumps up the water. It's it's the same turbine, basically, that does both.

Okay. Yeah. To ask, like, one sort of final question on Dinovig, is it intended to run forever? Like, it feels like there's replacements that have to happen every sort of twenty five years, but but will we always have something like Dinorwig?

Yeah. Well, I think in theory, yes, it could because, because we've been training done, and, it's the second time we do that. We did that already two years ago, for replacing the first two valves. We're replacing the the four remaining valves this year. There's been a lot of, inspections and visits of the shafts and the civil work is in perfect condition.

So there's no reason, you know, once we have upgraded, the mechanical and the electrical system that we cannot carry on for a long time. I mean, we operate a lot of hydro hydro assets all across the world, and some of them are as as old as seventy, hundred years old.

And, if it's the civil civil works because that's the biggest investment. That's the biggest impact also, environmentally speaking. If it can goes on forever, if it's in good good situation, it can goes on for a long, long time. Yes.

Yeah. We had, Kate Gilmartin on on an episode about pumped hydro, I think, maybe around six months ago, and she was talking about one one, pumped hydro asset in GB that's been running for, I think, a hundred and ten years.

Yeah. We're not be surprised. I mean, if you can change the the mechanical parts, you know, of course, because it's wearing off, but I said it's the fist. If the civil holds, it can go for a long time. That's incredible. So it's it is actually some of our business cases, and we do buy a lot of hydro assets in the in the world, you know, and and we refurbish them. So it's it's it's there's good business there.

Okay. And maybe let's, let's then go on to sort of the competition. So we have pumped hydro assets, and we have had them for a long time, and I think we will have them for a long time. We're also starting to see technology like batteries coming through.

Engie working both. Do you do you see them competing? Do you see them complementing each other? How how does that work?

I mean, for all the support services to the grid, the batteries have been, taking some of some of the market, you know, to the to the pump hydro. But what the batteries can bring is all the stability, all the stability and the inertia to the grid, and that that can be brought by these massive wheels under I think it's five hundred ton under wheels of the of the turbine. So it's really important to support the grid, like, also all the all the CCGTs. So that that's what batteries can't can't bring.

I mean, maybe they will bring it one day, but what they don't bring also is the duration. Mhmm. At the moment, most batteries are built between, one, two hours, maybe four hours, you know, but, at the moment, we I mean, in first in first hydro, if with one turbine, we can hold for thirty six hours, and with six turbine for six hours. So that's, the and I think the assets are in the development have also long longer duration for for storage.

So so it is complementary. Yes. At the moment, there's a little bit of competition for the short duration and very, instantaneous support to the grid, but I think it will, it will come as a compliment in the in in the coming years.

And to add a couple of stats onto that, so as of the end of May of twenty twenty five, the average duration in GB storage is one point five hours.

So Yeah.

That's that's a that's sort of a live stat and a live threshold that's being crossed.

Absolutely.

I'd say one thing that we have had to mention in conversations on, Daniel Duckwitz from SMA came on to talk about how most batteries are grid following in terms of their inverter, but we're now starting to see grid forming inverters. And so I think that will be one area where you might start to see almost synthetic inertia starting to compete with Okay. Your your sort of spinning pumped hydro. So maybe that's a a topic for future debate.

Yeah. Future debate. One step at a time.

Yes. Exactly. And and to be honest, grid forming inverters are very limited at the moment. We haven't seen that many of them rolled out, but Yeah.

It's I think it's a directional thing that the battery space is thinking about. So it will be interesting to see. Let's now talk about the business model. So if I'm a pumped hydro site and I need to get funding for this, so a billion pounds is is a is a lot of money.

Mhmm. How do you get funding for that? How do you get confidence that that this is all gonna make sense from a business perspective?

Well, first of all, those assets are fully merchant. I think it's, it's, we don't have, subsidies or or we don't have CFDs.

The only contract that we can get is a capacity market to secure part of the revenues, but the rest is is fully merchant. And, it's all done also to our know how. We have, long experience on on, working and trading on the electricity market in, in the UK and in many countries.

And, and it's done also to our expertise. I know I know how to anticipate, predict, and and play on the market mechanism that we can play to make sure that we have, revenues to to to fund our Okay. Our investments here.

And is there is there a role for government in supporting pumped hydro? Did you mention you had one of the first ministers coming past in Norweg? Like, what's the what's the origin origination of of them coming to see it?

Well, one one thing that we are interested in is to have sufficient support in the through the capacity market mechanism to refurbish fully the six turbine.

Okay.

At the moment, the rules are pointing towards refurbishing only four because we would get, our maximum revenues for only four, and then, it's kind of doesn't give any value for the for the flexibility of the other two, which for us is, is not intuitive at all. We I think we don't it should be a no brainer that we do refurbish those, those six turbines and and be able to support, any type of crisis, whether it's a long crisis or or or a small crisis. And that additional flexibility is not recognized by the capacity market.

Okay. So you're sort of doing this work on the Norweg, but the current rules essentially only allow you to replace four of the turbines.

Exactly.

But you're essentially saying, well, look. Since we're doing all of this work anyway, which is a billion pounds worth of investment and and work on, this site, Why why not let's just kind of tweak the rules and get these other two done all all at the same time?

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's not about tweaking the rules, and we're not asking anything specific for for us.

Not at all. It's about recognizing that when we have a shared resource, which is the case, we have the water is shared between our six turbines, then we can use it for for nine hours with four turbines or we can use it for six hours for with six turbines. And that's basically what currently the CapEx market does not recognize because they only recognize unit by unit. If we follow strictly the rules, we could claim that each of our units can run for forty six hours. Mhmm. But it's not true. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So essentially saying the the because the capacity market pays out different amounts of money depending on the duration that you can provide for. Yeah. So for listeners, if you're a very short duration asset, like a one hour or two hour system, instead of getting a hundred percent of a capacity market payment, you would get something like ten to twenty percent.

Yeah. It's the the the rating is really quick and really, really harsh. Yes.

Yes. And so if you can be a longer duration asset, you get more of the capacity market payment. Absolutely. And so I think this is where there's the kind of the desire for the capacity market to kind of appreciate that duration is is is, I think, the conversation.

Absolutely. And there's not so many assets in the in the market who have shared resources, but I I believe we believe that there will be more and more, you know, when you have, for example, hydrogen storage developing or or compressed air storage or things like that. This will be shared resources, you know, somehow and would have to be recognized.

Well, let's do that. Let's go into the future.

Now you've mentioned hydrogen and sort of compressed air. So, like, what what do you you've worked in in in energy space and as an engineer for for many years. So what do you think that kind of next ten, fifteen years looks like?

I mean, for hydrogen, it will take a bit more time that every everybody I think it's no no news on that, it's it takes a bit more time to to get the the business case, flying. But there's also all the green gas, you know, all the biogas. We do invest quite a lot in biogas. We are one of the major player in Europe for biogas.

We are also now starting to invest in the UK and have a really appetite to develop that. Because it's a it's it's a faster, easier way to green the gas that we need.

Hydrogen will be there, and and we also look at, investing in in hydrogen, and partly hydrogen hydrogen storage in the UK, and hydrogen production in other countries.

But, but it will take a longer term a longer time to to be at industrial scale.

Okay.

So you're starting to see a few of these technologies coming through Yeah.

Like biogases, and they might be something we move towards perhaps slightly earlier than, say, hydrogen. But long term, you see hydrogen Yeah. Alongside things like compressed air being part of the solution.

Absolutely. I mean, hydrogen, yes. Absolutely. Especially one of one of the the areas that we need absolutely to to invest and we are investing into that is how we can how we can green, the fleet of CCGT that is existing.

Because there are also still essential assets Yes.

To keep, to keep the electricity on and to keep the flexibility that we're not. It's it's very complementary to battery and, and and and and pump storage. You know, all of that is needed to to keep the lights on. And hydrogen and biogas, you know, is our ways also to green and and decarbonize this fleet. And we need to also I mean, like for our pump storage, we need to make the most of what we already have. Yeah. But it it comes with the condition, of course, to decarbonize it as much as we can.

And that was the question I really wanted to ask, which is, obviously, ENGIE work in many gas projects alongside lots of other, say, pumped hydro, solar, wind, battery. But those gas projects, there is a transition going on. You've obviously worked in some of those gas projects, as well. So so how do you see those sites transitioning?

It's a very broad question.

I mean, maybe you want me to talk about storage, for example, because that's an area I know I I know the best. I mean, it's, I mean, we currently operate, the fastest cycling gas storage in the UK. Maybe you didn't know that. It's near Chester, and, and it's, salt cavities, basically.

But you can store anything you want in a salt cavity. And at the moment, we have a project to to build new salt cavities to to build to to store hydrogen. For me, it's important that, again, we have those, those assets that have been built, you know, with a lot of ingenuity by our engineers, and they can last forever. So we need to use them the best we can.

Same for for the all the gas transportation networks. There's been huge investment in the sixteens, sixties, seventies, eighties to develop the gas network. This is easy to transport the molecule that we want and then use it to produce electricity, for example, at at the end. This is natural transportation and storage system that already exists.

Mhmm.

So that's really important. I think we, we do invest into reinventing them with a greener solution and greener gases to flow into them. It it it would be a far reach far reach to to say that we would do, we would put hydrogen in the gas network. Yeah. I don't believe in it into it, but biogas, absolutely. It is it is something that we're aiming to do more and more biogas in the in the French network system, and we can do that also in the UK.

Okay. Super interesting. I think about batteries. I think about power systems. So I always I kind of I I like, transmission lines, perhaps more than I like gas gas pipelines. But I can see there's a world where you need a combination of both to deal with some of the more nuanced parts of power systems, like getting through a winter period when there's no sun, there's no wind, etcetera.

Absolutely. And, and and the gas system offers a lot of storage and and flexibility.

Yeah. It's much more much less, I mean, we we have we don't need to react as instantly as for the grid the power grid system. You know? We it's as much more flexible.

Okay. So I'm gonna ask you one more question before coming on to the final two. And so as the managing director of ENGIE's pumped hydro business Mhmm. I would love to ask you a question about how did you get into the space and what advice would you give to young people interested in engineering, specifically women who are probably underrepresented in the space?

Well, I'm I probably would start with their parents.

So if you're listening, pass this now over to your parents.

Yeah. No. I mean, when I was an engineer, when I was doing my engineering studies, it was in the late eighties.

There was only fifteen percent, of ladies, more or less, in the class, and it's still the same today.

Yeah. So I find I find that absolutely staggering. And I do believe strongly that it's because we have still a lot of stereotypes in our society, and it starts at a at a young age.

So one of the thing I can share with your auditors is that when I was young, well, my my dad, he was an electrician, and I was enjoying so much doing DIY with him, you know. I mean, it raised the curiosity.

And one of the other things that he was keen on doing, and it was not so fashionable at the time, during holidays, we were visit visiting a lot of industrial sites. Every year, we were visiting a a dam or a factory or you name it, you know. And he was he was himself fascinated by all this engineering, engineering, success, you know, and what the human brain can, can can put together.

I think that's how he raised my curiosity.

And I think that's why the advice for me is to the parents, just offer the possibility to your children, you know, to to be curious about that and, and break the stereo stereotypes.

Mhmm.

And, dads especially, ask your daughter to come and do DIY. She maybe she won't like it, but at least she has a chance to to try it.

Yeah.

I think there's something so much about, and, genuinely understanding how something works Yeah.

Is is so much of, kind of, I think, what started me on a journey towards engineering and keeps, like, my interest in the energy space as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's about opening up the minds of our children, first of all. And, and then for for for for the less young auditors, I think it's yeah.

I think I think they they need to find some mentors. If they are really interested in the in the in in the technical space, you know, I think if they can find some mentors, some people who help them, nourishing their curiosity and maybe opening doors also for for apprenticeship training etcetera, I think it's, it's something that they they need to try. I mean work experience for example, we have possibility to do work experience, when we are at, at high school, I think, in the UK. Try to do something in the technical space and and and see if it if you're interested or not.

Yeah. I love it. I think it's a it's a really interesting space, but how do you move the needle on getting more people into certain topics.

I just don't have to worry about that.

Absolutely.

And I still don't understand understand. I mean, I still don't understand why people are not so keen on doing that.

Yeah. I think every industry says that. Every industry is kind of a little bit passionate about their own space and Yeah. And never really understands why other people don't share the same enthusiasm.

But when you see what when you you see what the type of realization that the human brain and the human, teams, you know, can can put together.

Yep. Yeah. So I mean, get, cabins the size that Simple's Cathedral can fit into two and a half meter wide valves, the largest valves in the world, especially being manufactured and shipped. You've got the power system, which is the largest machine on Earth. Absolutely.

How can you not be interested Yeah.

In this? And and and the teamwork also, the passion of people working together, it's, it's it's more than fifty percent of the success of the project. It's the team. It's the people.

Okay. I'm gonna move us on to our final two questions. The first one is, is there anything you'd like to plug?

Maybe, couple of things, if I may. Of course.

One, I want to repeat that I think we need to do the most of what we have.

Of course, we need to invest for the future. We are we are doing that. We are investing in the renewable space, in the batteries, etcetera. But we need also to do the most, to take the most and, and decarbonize what we have because it's probably a harder a harder way to go because it requires industrial skills, industrial knowledge, technical skills.

But it's it's a much more, sustainable way to continue to continue the journey towards a greener, greener energy.

And the other thing I'd like to plug, I think we are we are fortunate that in the the first hydro assets we have in our North Wales, it's a beautiful area, but it's a bit remote. But we will need to recruit more and more, talents in the future, to deal with our new, refurbished assets, and we are keen also to take on board apprentice and, and and trainees.

So, yeah, it's maybe far away, but there's so much things that are interesting in this area.

Well, maybe just, let's put a bit of context on that. So how many people work at Dunorwig? Is it are we talking five, ten, five hundred?

At the moment, we have, permanent jobs. We have hundred and eighty people.

Okay.

But we're, of course, attracting a lot of other people for to support our projects and also through our subcontractors. So, yes.

With all the additional work going into All the additional work.

Absolutely. Okay. And we take regularly apprentice and trainees.

Okay. That's great news. And then, onto my final question. So is there a contrarian view you hold, something that you believe that others don't?

I think I already said it when I talk about making the most, of of of of the assets we have for the future. I think it's also important to invest in that.

But it's, it's not an easy it's not an easy path for for for all the investors. Absolutely not.

Yeah. Okay. Delphine, thank you very much for your time and your your expertise. It's been a fascinating listen to get the history of pumped hydro as well as everything that's going on within these these this well, that in in fascinating business.

I'm very excited to see what comes next.

Thank you. Thank you very thank you. And it was my pleasure.