Sodium-ion batteries with Neil Kidner (Co-Founder and CSO @ Adena Power)

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Transmission Podcast. It's me, Quentin Scrimshire. And this week, we've got doctor Neil Kidner, cofounder and chief scientific officer at Adena Power. Now we're going to talk about a topic we haven't done on the podcast before, and it's a very hot topic right now in the battery world. It's sodium ion batteries.

So if you're involved in the lithium ion space and you're curious about sodium ion, this is a podcast for you. And if you like it, please hit like, subscribe, and stick a comment in the comments. It really does help us increase the reach and get to more listeners. So without further ado, let's jump in.

Neil, thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

So let's get straight to it. Sodium batteries, there's an awful lot of hype and excitement and investment going into sodium based batteries.

Could you just give our listeners a brief overview about, the category of sodium batteries and why that's a special thing?

Yeah. No. It's a it's a really good question. I I would totally agree that there's a lot of hype.

There's a lot of investment. Unfortunately, we're not quite seeing as much of that investment ourselves. But, yeah, in terms of, like, an overview, there's several types of of sodium ion batteries. I think the most common and the one where we're seeing the most hype is kind of the the twin of of lithium ion.

That's the twin myself. Maybe it's a more of a fraternal twin. That there's definitely a lot of similarities, but there are some some differences. But I think that's what's making it very exciting for people is the, the opportunity to have a a ready made, replacement or drop in alternative to the the juggernaut that is lithium ion.

So sodium ion batteries, the the analog of of lithium ion is very similar or the same processing equipment, but obviously have a lot of of benefits whether around sustainability, particularly for those those of us looking for a more robust supply chain, a domestic supply chain outside of China, a lot of advantages around sodium ion as well as on safety and other benefits. The other class on where actually Adena Power is more focused is in sort of higher temperature sodium batteries. So these would be akin to the sodium nickel chloride or Zebra battery, or the sodium sulfur battery developed by NGK.

So there's really two types of families. I think the the, the family that's getting the most interest and I think the most excitement and likely the most likely to, to compete, at those high volumes with with lithium ion in the future would be the the analog sodium ion batteries. So looking forward really to talking about both and and kind of talking through kind of some of the decisions we made with with Adena in terms of why we we looked at the specific technology, we looked at, but definitely see lots of similarities and some of the benefits between these two.

Well, let let's go to Adena now then to set the scene. So, your company, Adena, can you give us the baseball card for Adena? How long how long you've been going? What do you do? How many employees, capital raise, that kind of thing?

Yeah. So Adena Power, we've been we've been going at this for for a couple years now. We spun out of a parent company called Nexaris that's been in the clean energy space, particularly in solid oxide fuel sales and electrolysis for over thirty years. So, we were motivated, several years ago to to explore the energy storage space and really look at where we could take some of our core competencies in terms of solid oxide fuel cells and ceramic experience, and look to see what opportunities there were were in the battery space. So currently that we're we're a team of six. We're we're relatively new. We're a start up, and we're looking for that that initial seed investment at the moment.

And how long has Adena been going?

It's been a couple years. So since, twenty twenty two, end of twenty twenty two.

And now here here's the layup, the question that you I'm sure you find the easiest to answer, which is what's so wrong with lithium ion batteries?

Now why do we need an alternative to lithium bat batteries in the first place? There's there's there's so many. It's it's it's a mature technology. You've got production lines, churning out loads of these things. Why would we even consider an alternative for lithium ion cells?

Yeah. I bet it's a question I I often consider late at night being, like, why why what is going to compete and what is gonna be needed other than lithium ion?

I think one one reason one reason that motivated us with, Adena Power so I mentioned our our parent company, they we developed a lithium ion safety monitor called Line Tamer, which gives the earliest indication of thermal runaway. And we commercialized that. It's now being distributed worldwide by Honeywell, for both stationary and now the emerging EV market. I think that really gave us an appreciation of the safety challenges with lithium ion.

I think there's been a lot of progress here over the last last years in terms of improving the safety, of lithium ion. But I think from the the most recent Moss Landing fire, right, there's still an inherent danger and safety concern around lithium ion. I'd I'd you begin to look at the different AHJs that are looking at energy storage. I think you're based, taking the podcast here from Austin.

I know Austin is an area where there's the AHA there has concerns around lithium ion batteries. You look at New York city or or some of these large urban areas, but it's very difficult now for the permitting for for lithium ion. So I think safety is a. I think a concern.

I think the other appreciation is just how big a concern and that's something over time we've really, began to understand more as may, maybe it's not the inherent safety, but there's the cost implications from ensuring the permitting that's, that's been a challenge. I think the other key piece, I alluded to is that sustainability angle, particularly those here in the US and in, in the west are looking for more robust different supply chain. So it's what really, what motivated us with Adena to look at developing a safer, more sustainable, and ultimately have a path to a lower cost, energy storage solution.

I think as as we've seen here though with LFP pricing over the last couple years, that that cost, cost value proposition is is a difficult, it's it's a difficult value proposition, and we we need to be thinking and we need to be looking ahead. And I think there's a recent paper, right, that came out, just last month around kind of looking at how sodium ion and again, here's the lithium ion analog has the with the materials, build materials, has the opportunity potentially into the next decade to be cost competitive of where, where lithium ion is. So I think there's, there's a lot of, needs for alternatives, to lithium ion, and that's something we're we're wanting, that motivated us ultimately with with a power.

And and now to go to the flip side then, how does a sodium ion battery cell work? And what are the materials that are in a, of course, sodium? But what are the materials that are in a sodium ion battery compared to other types of battery cell? And what why are they better materials to use?

Gotcha. So maybe if we consider the, again, the the the sodium ion analog of lithium ion, in so many ways, very similar. You have, ano cathode electrodes, and you have a separator. You typically will have a a salt salt solvent, electrolyte.

In the case of sodium ion, instead of graphite, you're likely using a a hard carbon based anode. I think that's really interesting. There's a lot of routes to make that hard carbon, different approaches there that I think are very interesting. And, from a circular economy perspective, have advantages, like, over lithium ion and, graphite anode.

I think on on the cathode for sodium ion, there's several types. There's the sodium layered oxide, some more, again, akin to maybe a traditional NMC, type cathode for lithium ion. There's, the phosphate based kind of polyionic materials, and then there's the kind of Prussian blue analog. So I think there's, there's a range of different cathode chemistries that people are exploring for, for sodium ion, batteries.

I think all of these, you look at the the materials that are going into these CAFO, CAFO then there's less critical materials than we see in, a typical lithium ion battery. I think that's one of the advantages.

For Adena, I I mentioned we're looking at the sodium, metal halide based chemistry. So a higher temperature operating battery.

In this case, it's actually a a solid state based battery. So we use a sodium conducting electrolyte. So a a ceramic, a Nazicon, ceramic membrane. This is, again, taking our core competency, our background in in so that's how fuel cell processing.

We know how to make So there's no no fluid, no pouch.

Exactly.

It's a Solid state.

Yes. So solid state, battery with a iron well, we we're using an iron salt based cathode, chemistry. So typically, people used, an a nickel based, cathode. What we saw when we started this was in order to get to cost that we would we're we're going to need we we need to substitute a lower cost material than nickel. So we use iron. So it's an iron salt based cathode, and it's formed in a discharge state. So the sodium that forms on our anode, which will be molten sodium at high temperature pumps during that first charging cycle.

Okay. And so what about Adena then? What's your, is it an intellectual property advantage that you guys have, or is it something else?

Yeah. That I I think what we we took and, again, when we began began this journey, really evaluated, okay, what are our core competencies? How do we find a technology that we can really leverage these competencies to to build that that defensible position, that IP advantage. So we have a lot of know how, processing know how in the manufacture of these, ceramic membranes. And we we have very vertically integrated. So we synthesize the powder and they integrate IP from the powder synthesis, the membrane up into our cell design.

The other thing we did, and I think it was probably one of the smartest thing we did was we realized very early on that we don't know everything. We know very lit very little. There's people that have been out there that have been working on these types of chemistries for a long time, and, we partnered with them, in particular with, researchers at Pacific Northwest National Lab up in, Richland, Washington, who really been working in this space of the sodium, oh, halide batteries for for ten plus years. They had IP around, an ion based cathode. So what we did was we worked with them. They've become really, great collaborators for us, but we're able to secure an exclusive license from them to allow us to use, or substitute iron, it's a nickel within our Kafo formulation.

So we we've been able to, I think, blend and marry our own IP and our own, IP developed from our our cell design and our materials know how, you know, try and incorporate then the complimentary IP from our our partners.

And why does high temperature matter?

Mhmm.

So I I gotta be careful because I come from a solid oxide fuel cell background. So high temperature and some ice background, like, okay. This is a thousand c plus. Okay. I would say more Okay.

More temperature.

More warm temperature, I guess. So, it's a really interesting, kind of background. So the the traditional sodium, metal halide and sodium sulfur batteries typically operate two hundred and fifty to three hundred and fifty degrees c. And there's reasons for that, but one of them is they they're based on a tubular cell design, a very thick ceramic electrolyte and what we did.

And again, our cell design is based on a planar cell format. So what we did was took this thick tubular ceramic, and we transformed our our format into a planer, so with a very much thinner, electrolyte thickness that allows us to operate on lower temperature. So we we operate at a a balmy one seventy c, but that that difference is enabling it in terms of it opens up our materials design freedom. So instead of having to use high cost glass ceramics, we can use polymer sealing approaches, which we see as a as an advantage.

There's definitely, though, an argument there is an auxiliary heating needed to to for our batteries to get to temperature.

So what what is the benefit? And I think that's something we've, we've had to educate people upon.

I think operating our high temperature, what that does give us is a insensitivity to the ambient temperature. So unlike a a lithium ion battery that may be having to be very temperature needs to be tightly controlled. We we're because we're operating at a high temperature, we're able to be more forgiving in terms of the ambient temperature. What that means is we don't need the the HVAC systems, which are typically needed and often are the Achilles' heel of these larger energy storage deployments. Indeed, when we've talked to one of the utilities we talked to, made the statement that going out to these large utility sized energy storage deployments, often often all you're seeing is is row upon row of of HVAC systems. So being able to simplify that, I I believe gives us an advantage at that system level.

And you and the team at Adena have partnered with some impressive institutions. So the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, for example, also the US army. Could you talk a little bit about your partnerships with those organizations and and what that's done to your r and d road map?

Yeah. Maybe I'll I'll talk a little about the army and our knowledge also the department of energy. We've been really fortunate, to have secured for early development funding through department of energy and the department of defense specifically through the army and specifically through the, SBIR, STTR programs. And they've been a really great, non dilutive funding source for us to to kind of take our idea, our concept, and and scale it beyond the lab into kind of these module demonstrations, which is where where we currently are.

So we've been incredibly fortunate for that funding. Really enabled us to advance the technology to where we currently are. As I as I mentioned before, the the partnership with Pacific Northwest National Lab has really allowed us to accelerate our technical development. They, as I mentioned, they they have years of experience with this type of chemistry.

And so it's it's fantastic to be able to, if we see something odd or strange or we don't understand in our in our cell data, we are pick up pick up the phone. Our guests more likely now pick up the the team's call, and then just have someone on the other end of the line that typically will tell tell us, well, yeah, we encountered that ten years ago. This is what's happening. This is how you can solve it.

So it definitely shortens that, that development, development cycle. It's allowed us to focus, I think, less on the fundamental chemistry and understanding and more on how do we take this and make it into a solution.

And that's that's been really important. I think the other piece, one thing that really attracted us to this chemistry, is that it's proven. So you look at this as the same fundamental chemistry that GE looked to to, develop with their Durafone battery. And as we were looking at different, battery chemistries, what we kept coming back to was, well, the performance was is was excellent of this technology and why I didn't get the adoption that based on the performance, we'd understand.

So we we we reached out. We seeked out as many people who worked on that technology at GE that we could find and we could talk to. We did kept asking the question, well, why what happened? Why didn't get the adoption?

We heard many things. We heard twenty ten very different, and I agree, very different to now. And but we also learned of these two fatal flaws, one around that that cylindrical cell design and one around the use of nickel. So what we kind of our approach was, okay.

We know fundamentally the chemistry works. There's data that shows the long lifetime, the durability, the cycle life, the calendar life.

What can we do? What can we bring our our technology, our experience, and our IP to address those those kind of those fatal flaws? So that's why we we designed it in a plainer format, and we licensed the iron for the for the nickel.

And what does success look like for Adena? If I may maybe if you talk about the the the company and your milestones.

And then I'd like to ask you about the wider sodium iron community or category. Yeah. What adoption looks like there? But firstly, for Adena, where are you guys at right now? What are you aiming to do in the next few years?

Yeah. So where where we currently are, is kind of demonstrating at the building block module side. So we we've taken the the technology from the lab out into, out into kind of a module level, couple kilowatt hour type demonstration size.

What that has given us confidences around is kind of the the stacking of ourselves, the the integration with our firmware and our battery management systems, I think positioned us to engage with larger demonstrations. So what we're working towards, is those larger, more product intent demonstrations, and we have several we're fortunate to have several utility, partners that are very interested in evaluating the technology. So part of our roadmap is, is advancing that, that product readiness. So we can, we can get to those demonstrations, at least show the use case. Still at, still at a pre pilot stage, but really integrating whether it's integrating with a, a solar, array to show kind of a solar clipping use case or to, to really begin to show and validate kind of the techno economic analysis we've, we've done. That for us over the next year or two is the the key milestones on the technical side.

I we're we're also looking and I think for us is how the the market matures, in terms of how do we how do we, how does our technology, our product roadmap align with the market roadmap? So we are we we see the the general landscape. We see the, as I said, the the juggernaut that is lithium ion. And you can argue there's also the the sodium ion.

There's there's a lot of shorter duration energy storage opportunities there. And I I I think it's gonna be very hard for any new technology compete in that space. So we are deliberately designing ourselves, our technology, looking more for the longer duration space. So ten hours plus that intraday range.

It's it's interesting what we what we heard when we began the journey is lithium ion will be out. It's always gonna be four hours or less.

I think we've heard over the last year or two, like, that that that duration keeps going up, six, eight. We we even heard from someone who who said lithium ion will take all storage up to thirty six hours, and they were very nonchalant about that. So I I think if if that's the case, I think it's really, difficult for other other technologies to to to compete. But we do see a space where where there is there is an opportunity for other emerging technologies and where there's that that need.

So I think in terms of the sodium ion battery space, you you begin to see it probably is the most compelling, the most promising battery technology to compete with with LFP here in the foreseeable future because of the the fact that it can leverage the thirty years of it's so well aligned. It can leverage that thirty years experience that Living a Man has. It can take advantage of all the cost reduction that's already been implemented. And I think there is that I think there's that motivation, that that desire to have a more decoupled, deconvoluted supply chain, and that that will will help drive it forward here in the US and and elsewhere.

So I to me, I I see sodium ion. And, again, this is the the lithium ion equivalent being competitive with with lithium ion, here beginning of two thousand and thirty. So I think you're gonna begin to get to cost competitive, at that stage.

I think both will coexist. They will be if we go back to that twin analogy, that they they will be able to find a way to coexist together.

And that's where I kind of see the the market adoption.

And what what's the trade off with sodium based, cells then? Is it, an energy density? You know, for example, if you if you think about NMC versus LFP, even if you go and buy a Tesla today. Yep. You know, the the performance Teslas use NMC and the standard ones use LFP, and you can you can see why because there is a trade off on on on current and performance. So, how how how are you thinking about the trade off between sodium ion and other types of technologies, and and how does that affect the way you develop these kind of cells?

Yeah. So I I would say for for sodium ion, because sodium's heavier than than lithium or being equal, your energy density will be lower. So your gravimetric energy density will be lower. So where those applications where and as you can see, it's not as important. So I think definitely in the the stationary energy storage space, sodium ion could be very competitive.

I think sodium ion, the the energy density is close enough particularly to LFP. And I think with the system advancements, the the cell enhancements, you can get close enough that sodium ion is a viable path for the EV space too, which I don't think other emerging battery technologies are, which I think is the what gives it the key because it can get to the scale in order to be able to, be competitive. Because, ultimately, I see that the station a energy storage market has really benefited from the the market pull that EVs have created over the last ten years. I think the question that we posed ourselves was, is there is the adoption of EVs or the the ramp up of EV adoption, does that create different dynamics in the next ten years?

Is it is there a restriction in terms of the availability of lithium ion that gives opportunity for these other emerging technologies? I I think you begin if you begin to see sodium ion emerge part of that is because of this, the, the, the scarcity of lithium ion. Although with forty, I think forty new, battery facilities being built here in the US as this, this, like, growth in in demand. I think and one one way of thinking about it is you look at the EV versus the stationary market, and the EV space needs and, like, needs energy density and cost, but energy density is critical.

Whereas so it will it will likely continue with a lithium based technology battery chemistry. And I think the for the stationary side cost is is critical. It needs to be low cost, and it can give up energy density. So I think that's where you're gonna begin to see maybe the the sodium ion type batteries and and other technologies as, gaining market share.

Interesting. And what what about your projections for you know, where where do you think the sodium ion battery cell technology is gonna get to in the next few years? What are the the the milestones? And, you know, what does this how does this market shake out?

I I think it's a it's a good question.

Right? So, I think sodium ion will continue on its on a curve that follows very similar to to lithium ion.

I think one of the questions is how do people convert a lithium ion battery processing line to to sodium ion? Is there a a motivation for that, and what's driving that?

One of the reasons with Adena, we looked over we we wanted to try and avoid a traditional battery processing approach is our concern around how do we, as a small startup, secure that processing equipment as we look to scale. So by using industrial processes, but not those associated with traditional battery manufacturing, our belief is that we can, we can avoid any constraints around equipment. So we're we're looking for more kind of the traditional ceramic processing capital equipment, whether it's furnishing, those casting, those types of, ceramic processing equipment versus some of the, the battery manufacturing.

So I think in many ways, what will need to motivate the sodium ion space will be a shift in terms of supply chain. I think there's gonna need to be a greater driver, a greater motivator towards the need for robust domestic supply chain. So I think in in many ways, the journey that sodium ion will go on will be dictated by what happens here in the next five years in terms of geopolitical, geopolitical factors, that could shock the system.

Okay. So now this is your chance to announce anything or to plug or to sell. So is there anything you'd like to plug to our listeners who are generally energy folks?

Mhmm. I so I would say a couple things. I I we've mentioned with Adena, we're continuing on our on our journey. It's a it's a long journey we see from where we are.

We are focused on continuing to secure that that funding to continue to develop the technology. Really fortunate we have engaged stakeholders and partners who are helping us in that journey, but we're always looking for for more people to engage with, more people to learn from, more potential customers to understand the market. So that's definitely one area that we're always very interested to talk to people. I would say from the other side and from the energy space more generally, putting on my kind of NextEris parent company hat, we're positioned as a solution provider and kind of technology agnostic at the moment.

So we're always interested in in hearing from from customers, people in the energy space, in the climate energy space who are looking to solve, I think, like Adena, and we are trying to solve these challenging climate problems, particularly who have challenges around the, materials and, testing area that are looking for partners, because we're always looking for those, those customers to engage with. So that's, And that's across the energy spectrum from energy storage to, electrolysis, fuel cells, catalysis. We, we will operate in that broad space.

And now for my favorite question, which is what is your contrarian view? So what is your belief that you think not a lot of other people believe?

I think you you look at the scale, right, of this this energy transition and what we are looking to try and achieve as a society here in the next if you say we want to be net zero by two thousand and fifty. So the the pace of a transition, which is unlike any we've really attempted in in the past. I think one thing is there's not really any experts on the energy transition because I don't think we've we've never done this before. So I think one, one sense is that we all have to be humble.

We all have to have grace for each other. And we have to understand that there's probably gonna be a lot more false starts, a lot more errors, a lot more technologies that that don't make it, that a lot more, money is spent, perceived wasted, but that's just going to be required in order for us to to, to get where I think ultimately we all want to get to and have an equitable energy transition that, that benefits society. So I think that that's, that's one thing I, I think from a technology space and, you look at the again, look at the amount of storage that needs to be deployed.

Whether batteries will be the enable us to get all the way. I I doubt it. I think there needs to be a all of the above in particular as we look out to longer duration. And I think maybe the contrarian view I have is that I I I see pumped hydro, particularly nearshore pumped hydro as probably becoming more important.

I think there's opportunities, around the UN looking at the US. There's there's locations here where you could you can begin to install that level of pumped hydro, which could give you the the, the energy storage that we're gonna require. Right? I think for those longer durations for when we're up to eighty percent, renewable penetration above where where we're gonna be heavily dependent on storage to ride out those those multi day, weather events.

We're we're gonna need more storage, I think, than, more batteries. Batteries or electrochemical storage will be able to provide. So I think I think the the need for long term large large scale energy storage and government kind of, intervention to enable that is is gonna be required.

So you so you reckon that, the demand for energy storage systems on the power grid will exceed will will hit the limit of what supply can supply. Mhmm.

I I think so. I think what we're gonna have to I think it's gonna be interesting, but as solar begins to increase, so our electrical generation mix becomes solar, essentially.

I think that's the way we're we're evolving.

You begin to see daytime daytime is we call shift from a a summer day peak to likely a a winter kind of night is when we're gonna need to have kind of the the the storage, particularly as we begin to electrify all our homes, electrify everything. I think we're gonna shift for when we actually need, need electricity. And I I do see a sky kinda moving more to a winter peaking type, position. And you begin to concern around, particularly here, maybe not in, just above here in Ohio and at these north more northern latitudes.

Do how do we support the the winter demand that's gonna be needed again as as we shift to more, electric heating, EVs, like, would diminish solar during those winter months. And how do we support that? So there's gotta be a point, an even greater need for storage than we're we're aware of. Because ultimately, we need storage twenty four seven, three sixty five, or we need that reliable electricity. And I think that's gonna be the the hardest chance for us is that how do we preserve or maintain a reliable electricity grid with that high renewable mix in those months of winter where solar generation is lower than in summer.

And you think the answer is, hydro, pumped hydro?

I I think to get to the scale that we're gonna need, we need to be thinking I think it's orders of magnitude more than even we we comprehend. Right? So, ultimately, if we need to ride out a a multi day weather event.

We need we need hours of storage reserves. And I think you look at even what we're the what we're adding currently with with even the the battery storage we're deploying this last in in the last few years, it's it's minutes of additional storage based on our our current, max usage. And how do we how do we get to have those was and its reserves as well, which I think is interesting. It's not it's not assets that you're gonna be able to deploy, and monetize for shorter duration. I think they're how do we keep these storage reserves, and how do we incentivize that? And that I think that's that's a real challenge.

Okay. Well, Neil, I wanna say a massive thank you for joining us on the podcast and telling us all about, the work you're doing in the sodium ion sphere. Mhmm.

If you listen to this podcast, wanna find out more, we'll put a link in the show notes. And as ever, if you like Transmission and you want to get updates when new episodes come out, do hit like and subscribe.

It really helps us increase our reach and helps more people find what we're up to. Thank you very much, Neil.

Great. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.